[TruthTalk] Original Sin

[Judy Taylor]

JD: So why is the creation of Adam any different.  I believe in the "fall."   I do not believe in a fallen nature.    Adam was always going to sin.    Christ was always going to come to his rescue.   And that is why I believe that to disbelieve in the eternal Sonship of  the Christ is to deny what was destined to happen, appointed to happen,  provided for in the creation of Adam  before the worlds were.  jt: Then you have embraced a gospel very similar to that of Mormonism.   So what?    jt: So - that gospel is false and it is heresy.  There is not a whole lot of difference between yours and theirs you are both making God totally responsible for everyone's choices and claiming that Adam's fall was appointed and predestined all along.  The Mormons go so far as to say it was a good thing.   JD: Well,  I suppose, in some ways, one could say this.  Life in Christ is a predetermined concept in the mind of God.   But Judy,  if God is in control of the world,  I guess we could blame Him for all that occurs.   I use different words to picture what I believe.    jt:  A predetermined concept?  So God predetermined that his ONLY begotten Son (who was pure and holy, separate from sinners) would die a horrible and cruel death on a Roman cross?  What makes you think you know what is going on in the mind of God?  Being Sovereign is different from being a control freak.  God gave Adam dominion and he in turn handed that dominion over to Satan who became god of this world.  In John 14:30 where Jesus says "the ruler of this world is coming and he has nothing in me" he was not referring to God the Father.   JD: When we say, "God is not finished with me yet,"  we speak the very thing that was true for Adam and Eve.  This is heresy John.  Adam and Eve were complete.  They were innocent, holy and pure, naked and unashamed.   And where did I say otherwise?   When God plopped them down onto this earth as man and woman,  they were without sin.   But they had a sin nature.   That is clear from the biblical text of the their actions immediately prior to the sin event.    jt: They weren't plopped from anywhere. God made them here from the dust of the earth and breathed into them the breath of life (His breath); and since there was/is no sin nature in Him where did that part of your theology come from (along with your concept of their actions immediately prior to the "sin event").   They fellowshipped with God in the cool of the day and needed absolutely nothing; their job was to be good stewards over what God had entrusted to them. The saying "Be patient with me God is not finished with me yet" is an excuse for our offences toward Him and others because of our own sin, selfishness, and unbelief which is our problem, and our responsibility, not God's.    This is so anti biblical, I scarsely know where to begin.  It can be an excuse.  But, in fact, it is also very true.   Our sin, selfishness and unbelief are not our problem any longer.   All of this has been covered by the flow of the blood.  I will leave it at that.    jt: It may be anti JD but it is not anti biblical. God didn't leave Adam and Eve half baked in the garden. Do you think he would give someone who is only half finished dominion over His creation and tell them to "be fruitful and multiply?"  Why replicate something unfinished?  Makes no sense.  And sin, selfishness, and unbelief ARE our problem when they are not repented of and turned from. Yes God has given us everything we need for life and godliness in Christ so we have no excuse.  The blood of Christ will not "cover" sin; it cleanses the conscience from dead works/ritual when applied the right way.   At the moment of their creation, they were in need of the resurrected Christ.   The creation event, for man, is not completed outside the reception of the Christ,    jt: The above is a doctrine of men because at the moment of their creation there was nothing to redeem since all that was in them was the "breath of God" and as yet there had been no fall.   I do see now why you and others who accept this or a similar doctrine must cling so tenaciously to the idea of this "Eternal Sonship" which most definitely comes from the RCC. Stop with "heresy" Judy. It means absolutely nothing coming from you.  And I could care less about such nonsensical statements.   jt: Here we go with the personal "ad hominems" again John, you  just can't seem to help yourself, sigh!  They needed nothing before the fall John, Christ included because they were already in complete and full fellowship with Him since in His preincarnate state He is God the Word who spoke them into existence and who they fellowshipped with them every day in the garden. The reason we need Christ today is because there is a breach between us and God which we have no ability in and of ourselves to mend, we are being transformed from death to life.     JD: Certainly.   No one denies this.   What you do not understand is that with Adam and Eve, the sin event WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.   It was just a matter of time.   But we need to trim this discussion down a bit.   There are so many issues of disagreement here that neither of us can do any of them justice.   Would you choose one issue and we can go from there?      jt: I don't see a whole lot of issues John; neither do I see God predestining the fall before the foundation of the world which is what you are claiming here.   JD: His ministry of reconcilition and the spirtual process we know as "growth" resulting in a spiritual home with God in Christ.  The "fall" makes this conclusion irresistable.  But the "fall" did not mark the beginning of a different kind of existence for Adam, himself.     jt: Of course it did. Adam and Eve were full of life. They had never known evil or death; guilt and shame was not part of their consciousness and neither was murder which was not long in coming.  The reason WE must grow in grace is because we are in the  reverse process which is being transformed from death to life in Christ and we are not used to godliness and holiness having been raised and nurtured in a culture of death.  Look around you. JD: Adam was not immortal thus the tree of life.  He was not without the capacity for sin  --  thus sin was going to occur, given enough time.     jt: The tree of life would have given him immortality if he had eaten from it exclusively and this is why God warned him; it was Adam's choice to ignore that warning and so he is totally responsible for his own demise. This predestined fall idea is a figment of someone's vivid imagination, obviously someone with a fallen Adamic nature who continues to blame God and point the finger at Him.   Look at the record of the fall.   See there in its pages, the very same processes we, you and I, go through before a sin event.   We have the association with evil influences,  an intellectual openness to the consideration of sin,  the act of justification,  the sharing of evil opinion with others,  the denial of the truth of God ("you will surely die"),  the reaching out for sin, the act of taking into your possession the very opportunity for sin  (plucking the fruit from the tree) all before the actual sin event.   How is all this possible if they did not have the same capacity for sin, the same human nature, as we?     jt: Wait a minute John, you are reading a whole other scenario into this.  God made A&E in His image but He didn't make them Gods. They were to obey Him as their Creator.  He gave them dominion and made them stewards over His creation giving them a Bible with just One Commandment which was not to eat from a certain tree (of wisdom).  There were two trees in the garden and in scripture trees symbolize different things. Israel is referred to as an Olive tree; God's people are called "trees of the field" God's wisdom is called a tree of life (Prov 3:18)- the other kind of wisdom (a tree of death earthly, sensual, and demonic).  A&E did not reason it all out before they did it.  Eve listened to the wrong voice and was deceived (a deceived person is totally unaware that they are deceived).  Adam was aware after the fact and chose not to take a stand and obey God.  Sin by it's very nature is deceitful and so is the human heart. The example of how it would have been possible for them to overcome temptation is in all four gospels where the second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ - "just said NO" using the sword of the Spirit against the voice of the enemy.  The first Adam could have done the same but unfortunately he chose differently.  The the second Adam left us an example so that we can follow in His steps.     JD: I gave you biblical argument based upon a review of the Genesis record and you do what?   You completely ignored my review and substituted your own argument.   This is what you do when backed into a corner.   Ignore and procede.      jt: Another false accusation John? You did not review Genesis because if you had you would know that A&E did not reason or make any excuses before their disastrous choice. That happened when God confronted them. What makes you think I am "backed into a corner?" You have not yet presented your well reasoned scriptural argument.   Still waiting hopefully ...   Grace and Peace, Judyt