Therefore,
David Miller wrote:
>>I have argued against universalism (the idea that all will
>>be saved) in the past, not against the idea that Christ has
>>died for the sins of the whole world.
John wrote:
>Is this the same as saying that God in Christ has reconciled
>all of humanity to Himself in a single and sovereign Christ
>Event apart from any effort of man?
Yes, but it does not say that the infidel will never experience this
reconciliation. Did you mean to say " .... that the infidel will ever experience"? If not, I do not understand the point being made.
John wrote:
>Please establish, exegetically, your "realization of .....reconciliation"
>with the Colossian text. Where, specifically, is this in the text?
We have already been over this. Col. 1:23 says, "If ye continue in the
faith grounded and settled..." You have agreed that the product of
reconciliation, holiness, is not separate from reconciliation. We have not agree on this, David. I think the text, certainly the exegetical study, must of necessity be very specific. "Purpose " and "product" are two very different things. It seems that you are bent on thinking the two are the same. I believe the larger passage establishes the fact of reconciliation as having occured "in the body of His flesh and through [His] death." The condition for the establishment of the "fact" is the Incarnation Event including the death of Christ. The condition is not wider in scope than this. "To present (v. 22) .......... if (v. 23) is a statement of two things -- the purpose of the reconciliation event and the inclusion or partnership of those who benefit from this reconciliation. We know from other scripture, that two things happen in establishing this "purpose." First and foremost, we are declared "righteous" by another (God in Christ accepting faith in the place of righteousness) and we are called to a life of "righteousness." You have admitted and I agree that this second consideration is never fully lived -- we are always growing in the Lord, always overcoming, always involved inthe attempt to correct the fact of Romans 3:23 ".... an continue to fall short of the glory." Since we all fail in the effort to live a righteous life by the Spirit (see Eph 4:20ff), the purpose of the fact would be defeated apart from the unmerited work of Christ securing our righteousness for us. I will not mind someone who writes with more clarity than I, restating what I am saying. As soon as you tie "produce" to the fact, you make the fact dependent on production (of moral acclaim via the Spirit) and make this passage of no account to the many who are babes in Christ, carnally minded but growing. Purpose, not product, is what I believe the passage is talking about.
our experience of this reconciliation, is manifested in our lives as we
cooperate with believing God. Paul even goes further along these lines,
explaining his role as an apostle to bring others into this reconciled
relationship with God. Paul speaks of preaching, warning every man, and
teaching every man, that they might present every man perfect in Christ
Jesus. He even speaks about him laboring, and striving according to his
working. This is the effort which we do, not struggling to achieve
righeousness, but struggling to help others believe God and experience the
gift of God too.
John wrote:
>Why does Paul tells us to "renew our minds"
>should he have addressed that to the Spirit
>since we are just along for the ride after the
>Spirit indwells and takes over?
We are not just along for the ride. We cooperate with God, which is why we
receive instruction. False teaching can turn us away from Christ, and so it
is countermanded by sound doctrine and instruction. David, you recently had a discussion with Deegan in which you defended the view that no one was ever discipline for incorrect thinking or "false" doctrine. I happen to agree with that observation. Specifically, what false teaching" turns us away from Christ, other than the obvious?
John wrote:
>Want me to look up and list scripture that teaches
>that we expend effort?
Yes. I think the more a person tries to be righteous, the more he
experiences the frustrating life of Romans 7, never able to be holy, and
living a life of condemnation. Philip. 2:, 12,14, Romans 12:1-3, Eph 4:20ff, Eph 5:18-21; Eph 5:22, 33; I Cor 12:31; I Cor 11:33-34 and will, really, David ... there must be several hundred passages that picture our effort, even in understanding the will of the Lord.
John wrote:
>God does, in fact, accomplish righteousness for us
>-- accepting the exchange of "faith" for "righteousness.'
>We are, indeed, "righteous" apart from our own effort
>-- apart from effort of ANY KIND. But sense [sic] you agree
>with me 90% of the time, you probably are nobbing [sic] your
>head and saying "Amen" in your usual high pitched voice.
I don't have a high pitched voice, but yes, I am nodding my head and saying
Amen. Excellent.
.
David Miller.
