Participation and Deification are not synonymous. One might wish to have DM clarify just what he thinks those passages he cited mean prior to assuming that your respective understandings are identical.
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: April 07, 2005 20:40 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] to Perry on heretics--an apology > > Blaine: The doctrine of deification is quite plain in the Bible. As I said in a post to DavidM, I did not really need to go to the Eastern Church for support, except for the fact that apparently you are either ignorant of the Biblical passages supporting this doctrine, or you choose to ignore them. On the one hand you claim to believe the Bible, on the other hand you ignore much of what it says plainly and clearly. I thought if you would not believe the Bible, perhaps you would realize the same doctrine is taught by another group with much the same roots as your own, yet having diverged on that doctrinal point and accepted the scriptures as plain evidence of the veracity of deification as a doctrine. You have me both astounded and confused--what more can I do than what I have done? I can only conclude that your stance of condemning the Mormon version of this doctrine as heretical is anti-Bible, and even anti-Christian, not to mention being anti-Mormon. > > -- "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Thanks, Blaine. I appreciate that. But, I just reflected your statement > back to you, but changed the names. from me to you, and etc. I did this to > demonstrate that the same relationship you examined between the orthodox and > protestant church can be said between the protestant and mormon church. We > are not going to arrive at the truth by comparing religions. > > We need a hard standard by which ALL religions can be equally judged. The > Bible is that standard. It is the only one accepted (with some slight > variations in included books) by all of the religions that refer to > themselves as "Christian". I know that there will be some disagreement in > what the Bible is actually saying in some instances. Some disagreement will > be in translation, interpretation, bias, and other forms of > misunderstanding. But, I feel that the essential doctrine, that is, the > doctrine that will determine one's salvation, is pretty clear for all who > read the bible, regardless of the translation, to understand: We are saved > by the Blood of Christ, and by faith through grace. What could be easier? > All of the other arguments are intellectual volleying. What difference, for > example, does it make if the "burning" of hell is a literal fire, or if it > is merely a sensation, or even just a symbol of the pain that iwll be felt. > The net effect of hte message is that it will be a torturous place to be for > eternity. > > Now, my biggest concern with the Mormon church is that they truly worship > a different jesus and god than the Jesus and God of the Bible. Will that > condemn them? I certainly hope that their error is not great enough to > disqualify them from salvation. but from what I can tell from the Bible, I > believe it is, since that is worshipping a false god. Fortunately, I do not > make the final call. > > Perry > > >From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [email protected] > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] to Perry on heretics--an apology > >Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 03:51:51 GMT > > > > > > > >Sorry I called you a heretic, bro. Perry--the spirit just got through > >reprimanding me for doing that. Apparently the Lord thinks you are not to > >be referred to by that name!! > >Blaine > > > >-- "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Gee, another heretical sect. > > > > >From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Reply-To: [email protected] > > >To: [email protected] > > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work > > >Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 01:15:22 GMT > > > > > > > > >Charles Perry Locke wrote: And, although mormons apparently > > >cannot bear the thought that there are some aspects of God that we > >(humans) > > >simply do not understand, there certainly are. > > > > > > To think otherwise is to make oneself equal with God...and that is > >what > > >Mormons are trying to do with their un-biblical "men-to-gods" heresy. > > > > > > > > > > > >BLAINE: I find it very interesting that the Eastern Orthodox Church has > > >always without wavering accepted the doctrine of Deification, a doctrine > > >almost identical to the revealed religion of Joseph Smith wherein he > > >claimed man may become like God, through the atonement of Jesus Christ. > > >They claim dervation from, and continuity with, the most ancient of > > >Christian traditions. They believe the Western churches have apostatized > > >from these original doctrines. > > >Important points of comparison between Eastern Orthodox Christianity and > > >Mormonism: > > >1. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that because of Christ's > >victory, > > >deified humans will receive theri PHYSICAL bodies in a glorius > > >resurrection. Mormons believe the same > > >2. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe they may participate in the > > >"grace, power and glory of God." Mormons believe the same. > > >3. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that humans enter the realm of > > >infinity, becoming "eternal like God, without losing their humanity" > > >Mormons believe the same. > > >4. Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that even though they may become > > >gods, they will never cease to worship God, nor will they somehow replace > > >Him as God, because they become gods by grace. Mormons believe the same > > > > > >Before you write with such condescension, Perry, maybe you should > >acquaint > > >yourself with other beliefs that have come down without interuption from > > >early Christian times. They are REVEALING!! > > > > > >-- "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Dave, > > > > > > Let's be fair here. Private conversations with your comrades, whether > > >in > > >the temple or without, is a bit different than what the temple > >endowmwents > > >contain. I do not ask you what you pray, or to whom you pray. I do not > >ask > > >you about a personal conversation you had with your bishop, or Blaine, or > > >anyone else. Besides, as you have pointed out, the temple endowmwments > >are > > >publicized all over the web and in numerous books. What is private about > > >that? > > > > > > As far as the Trinity. You shall never understand it. The fact that > > >there > > >is a Trinity is a fact. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Trinity. The > > >nature of the Trinity...the way in which the Three are addressed in the > > >bible, where all three share the attributes of God, is clear. Yet, we > >also > > >know from scripture that there is only ONE God. There must be a > >resolution > > >to this apparent dilemma. There are basically two...whether the Three are > > >of > > >the same God, combined in some mystical way that we do not (yet) > > >understand...or there are three Gods. Christians, in general, choose the > > >first option. Joseph Smith chose the second. The doctrine of the Trinity, > > >while the nature of the union is not (cannot be) fully understood this > >side > > >of Heaven, is the ony one that adequately deals with ALL aspects of the > > >nature of the Three revealed in the Holy Word of God. All others have to > > >abuse ignore some aspect of the text to make it fit their view. Some say > > >Christ was not deity, yet the Bible makes it clear that he was. Some make > > >them three separate gods, yet the scripture makes it clear that there is > > >only one God. Some make them all separate manifestations (appearances) of > > >the one God, yet they can appear separately at separate times and > >interact > > >with one another. A truly mystical union. It has been called a > >"hypostatic > > >union", but I am not even sure what that means, nor do I think it > >matters. > > > > > > Some argue that since the word "Trinity" is not in the bible, there > >is > > >no > > >such thing. The word "Trinity" is the word used to represent the mystical > > >union of the Three as a single God. Because we can't understand it's very > > >nature does not mean that it does not exist. Life is full of such > > >mysteries...things that we know, but cannot explain or fully understand. > > > > > > Besides, I do not find any of the Mormon characters from the novel > > >called > > >"The Book of Mormon" mentioned in the Bible. Nor do I find any of the > > >Mormon > > >temple endowments described in the Bible doctrine (although I do see > >them > > >in handbooks on Masonic rites). For that matter, I do not find the mormon > > >jesus, mormon satan, or mormon god in the Bible, either. In spite of > >this, > > >you would argue that they are there. > > > > > > You statement "it seems the T-Doctrine was politically contrived to > > >actually mystify the Trinity in an effort to bring a lot of diverse > >beliefs > > >under one theological umbrella" just sounds like anti-christian crap. > >What > > >is your reference for that statement? Is it yours, or is it standard > >Mormon > > >patter? > > > > > > The Trinity doctrine is merely man's best attempt at resolving an > > >apparent paradox in the Bible...and as I have stated...it does more > >justice > > >to the text than any other explanation. And, although mormons apparently > > >cannot bear the thought that there are some aspects of God that we > >(humans) > > >simply do not understand, there certainly are. > > > > > > To think otherwise is to make oneself equal with God...and that is > >what > > >Mormons are trying to do with their un-biblical "men-to-gods" heresy. > >They > > >have bitten from the proverbial forbidden fruit...they have swallowed > > >Satan's original lie, and are attempting to convince others that it is > > >true, > > >as Satan did with Eve, and as Eve did with Adam in the Garden. When one > > >sins, there are three ways to absolve the guilt. Convince others to join > > >the > > >sin (misery loves company), convince others the sin is not a sin (moral > > >relativism), or drop to one's knees before a merciful and forgiving God, > > >confess their sin, and ask for forgiveness. (The first two only delay the > > >penalty...not remove it). > > > > > > It is time for the entire body of Mormons to cease from their sin, > > >confess, and ask for forgiveness. The Worldwide Church of God did this a > > >few > > >years back under the inspired and wise leadership of Edward Tkatch...I am > > >sure it can happen within the Mormon church as well, with the help of the > > >Holy Spirit and a handful of spirit filled and inspired individuals in > >the > > >church. When that occurs, Dave, be sure you are on the side of the Holy > > >Spirit. > > > > > >Perry > > > > > > >From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >Reply-To: [email protected] > > > >To: [email protected] > > > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work > > > >Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 07:24:46 -0700 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Charles Perry Locke wrote: > > > > > > > >>Dave,thanks for your answers. > > > > > > > >DAVEH: You are welcome, Perry. > > > > > > > >> > > > >> So, what I got from this conversation is that it is a mystery > >whether > > > >>mormon women are raised as spirits or F&B, and it is a mystery whether > > > >>exalted men-gods have multiple wives, and it is a mystery how flesh > >and > > > >>bones men-gods produce spiritual offspring with a flesh and bones wife > > >or > > > >>spiritual wife, whichever is the case. > > > > > > > >DAVEH: I don't consider it a mystery as much as I do something that is > > >not > > > >explicitly explained by Scripture. > > > > > > > >> > > > >> We also established that you and the mormon satan and the mormon > > >jesus > > > >>(and all humans, in the mormon view) are spirit brothers. Full > >brothers, > > > >>you say, even though it is a mystery as to whether they have the same > > > >>mother, which is deduced from the fact that it is a mystery whether > > > >>exalted men-gods can have more than one wife. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks. I think I understant now. These things are a mystery to the > > > >>mormons, just like the Trinity is a mystery to Christians. We know it > >is > > > >>so, > > > > > > > >DAVEH: And that seems to be the difference between us, Perry. You > > > >believe in a mystery, whereas the stuff you consider mysteries in > > >Mormonism > > > >are not doctrines we consider to be true....they are simply things that > > > >some speculate about rather than being doctrine. The Trinity Doctrine > >on > > > >the other hand is a mystery that is believed by most Protestants, as I > > >see > > > >it. And...apparently you believe it as well (correct me if I'm wrong) > > >even > > > >though it is a mystery to you. > > > > > > > >>but really don't understand in our earthly view of things how it is > >so. > > > > > > > >DAVEH: What is it that you learn from the T-Doctrine, Perry? > >And.....Why > > > >does it exist? And finally....why do you accept/believe it if it is a > > > >mystery to you? > > > > > > > > While you endeavor to tie both the theorys about that nature of > > >exalted > > > >beings to the mystery of the Trinity, it is apples and oranges. > > > >>From my perspective, Scripture tells us a lot about the nature of the > > > >Trinity....so, there is little reason for it to be a mystery. Yet it > > >seems > > > >the T-Doctrine was politically contrived to actually mystify the > >Trinity > > >in > > > >an effort to bring a lot of diverse beliefs under one theological > > >umbrella. > > > > > > > > So Perry......after reading the T-Doctrine, do you think you > > >understand > > > >the nature of the Trinity better than simply reading the Bible, or does > > >it > > > >make the nature of the Trinity more vague? > > > > > > > >> > > > >> And, I already knew that the Bible did not support the mormon ideas > > >we > > > >>have been discussing before you admitted it...I just wanted to know if > > >YOU > > > >>thought it did...and you confirmed that it does not. > > > >> > > > >>And, I am not "just itching to find out what Mormons would say in > > > >>private". Have I ever asked you about your private converations with > > >your > > > >>comrades in faith? > > > > > > > >DAVEH: Yes......if I remember correctly, you wanted to know about > >what > > >we > > > >talk about in the Temple. > > > > > > > >>If I haven't, then please don't make assumptions about what I am > >itching > > > >>to find out. Thanks. > > > >> > > > >>Perry > > > >> > > > >>>From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>Reply-To: [email protected] > > > >>>To: [email protected] > > > >>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work > > > >>>Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:07:32 -0700 > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>Charles Perry Locke wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>>Dave, I am honest with my responses to you. It is not hypocritical > >for > > > >>>>me to ask for a prooftext. If you asked me the wife/dog question I > > >would > > > >>>>answer "neither...next question". That is a valid answer, and gives > > >the > > > >>>>correct response. You answered that you do not know of any Mormon > > > >>>>position with respect to my question. That is a fair answer. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: I'm curious.......why did you ask it a second time? > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>I formulated these questions based on my understanding of Mormon > > >beliefs > > > >>>>which, you have pointed out before, do not always align with what > > > >>>>mormons really beleive. So, let me frame my questions in a different > > > >>>>light, and maybe I will get an answer. (I really do not expect long > > > >>>>answers on these...but I also would not like to get the run-around). > > > >>>> > > > >>>>1. Is it true that some mormon men will be (or have been) exalted > >to > > > >>>>godhood, and that in this state they have flesh and bones? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Yes...that is LDS theology. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>2. Is it true that these exalted mormon men-gods can (or may choose > > >to) > > > >>>>marry multiple wives? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Some LDS folks have speculated such, but I do not recall any > > > >>>specific passages from the Standard Works to support that theory. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>3. As far as you know is there a Mormon doctrine, teaching, or > >belief > > >on > > > >>>>whether Mormon women are raised as spirits or as beings with flesh > >and > > > >>>>bones like the men-gods are? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: That is a bit confusing, Perry.....But the next question is a > > >bit > > > >>>clearer. > > > >>> > > > >>>>I am talking about the mormon women that become married to exalted > > > >>>>Mormon men-gods. Are they flesh and bones, or spirit? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Both. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>(I think this is where we diverged on the last go-round. I think > >this > > >is > > > >>>>what you do not know, but it really does not affect the outcome of > >my > > > >>>>questioning. It only decides which question should be asked in the > > > >>>>end...but I will ask both below, so that regardless of the answer > >(or > > > >>>>lack of an answer) you will see at what I was getting.) > > > >>>> > > > >>>>4. Do the mormon men-gods have sex with their multiple wives > > >(regardless > > > >>>>of their nature...spirit or F&B) to produce offspring? (If you do > >not > > > >>>>call it sex, or do not know the method, then forget that term...do > > >they > > > >>>>somehow produce offspring with their multipl wives?) > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: I know of nothing in the Standard Works that addresses your > > > >>>question. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>5. Are these offspring spiritual in nature, or of flesh and bones? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: If I understand the nature of your question correctly (and > >now > > >it > > > >>>makes a bit more sense to me than the way you put it before), I would > > > >>>presume (speculation, if you will) that they would be spirit beings > > > >>>because one gains the flesh and bone physical (as we know it) body by > > > >>>being born into mortality. Again....I do not think this is covered > >in > > > >>>the Standard Works. > > > >>> > > > >>>>[I believe the answer here is "spiritual"...correct me if I am > >wrong. > > > >>>>Blaine has confirmed this before on more than one occasion, and you > > >may > > > >>>>have, too.] > > > >>>> > > > >>>>6. Is it true that you (and in the Mormon view, all humans) were > >once > > > >>>>such a spirit child of an exalted man-god and one > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Yes, that is doctrinal as I understand it. > > > >>> > > > >>>>of his wives? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: That is not addressed in the Standard Works. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>7. Is it true that the mormon jesus was such a spirit child, > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Yes, as I understand it. > > > >>> > > > >>>>and is your (full or half) brother? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Full brother, but I suppose that could be construed as > > > >>>speculation as well. We sometimes refer to him as our Elder Brother, > > >as > > > >>>he was firstborn of the spirits. > > > >>> > > > >>>>8. Is it true that the mormon satan > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Interesting way to put that, Perry......May I suggest a > >better > > > >>>way of stating such would be to say....*.the Mormon teaching about > > > >>>Satan*..... > > > >>> > > > >>>>was also such a spirit child > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Yes. > > > >>> > > > >>>>and is your and jesus' (and in the mormon view, all humans') half > > > >>>>brother (maybe full brother if any of you had the same mother!)? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: We consider both Jesus and Lucifer (as well as ourselves) to > >be > > > >>>spirit creations of our Heavenly Father. While Jesus is our Elder > > > >>>Brother to whom we are eternally indebted, Satan is a fallen brother > > >who > > > >>>has chosen to fight against the Lord, and has subsequently been cast > > >out > > > >>>of heaven. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>Having gotten this far, let me state my two questions based on the > > > >>>>answers to the questions above. One applies to the case where these > > > >>>>wives are F&B, the other if they are spirits: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>A. (Spitual wife case): If an exalted god-man has a spiritual wife > > >with > > > >>>>whom he produces spiritual offspring, of which you were once an > > >example, > > > >>>>it seems odd to me that a flesh and bones exalted man could produce > > > >>>>spiritual offspring with a spiritual wife. Did he contribute no > >flesh > > > >>>>and bones material to the process? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Not applicable, if I understand the premise correctly. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>B. (Flesh and bones wife case): If an exalted god-man has a flesh > >and > > > >>>>bones wife with whom he produces spiritual offspring, of which you > > >were > > > >>>>once an example, it seems odd to me that a flesh and bones exalted > >man > > > >>>>could produce spiritual offspring with a flesh and bones wife. Did > > >they > > > >>>>not both contribute flesh and bones material to the process? > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: That question is not directly addressed by LDS theology as > >far > > >as > > > >>>I know. However, there is certainly some clues/evidence that lends > > > >>>itself to speculation. If I was chatting with another LDS person > >like > > > >>>Blaine, it would be very easy to speculate about it without getting > > > >>>either of our noses bent out of shape. We could draw some thoughtful > > > >>>conclusions in the end, but it would still be speculation, > > > >>> > > > >>> Since I know you are just itching to find out what Mormons would > > >say > > > >>>in private, let me give you a primer without going into all the > > >details. > > > >>> As I understand it, spirit matter is not some /ethereal nothing/, > >but > > > >>>is still a physical material that is just more /refined /(if that is > > >the > > > >>>proper word for it) than the physical matter we think of in the world > > >in > > > >>>which we live. Furthermore, the exalted body of flesh and bones you > >(I > > > >>>assume) and I believe Jesus now is comprises is not of the same > >nature > > >as > > > >>>the physical body that we experience in mortality. As I'm sure you > > >know, > > > >>>our mortal bodies are composed of flesh and blood (and spirit), and > >are > > > >>>not able to walk through walls as did Jesus' resurrected body of > >flesh > > > >>>and bone. Do you agree with me so far, Perry? > > > >>> > > > >>> Hence.....You seem to want to draw conclusions as to what > >will/can > > > >>>happen with exalted bodies based on your experience with mortal > >bodies. > > > >>>Not only is doing so illogical, but it can lead to inaccurate > > > >>>conclusions. So....in the absence of Scriptural commentary, any such > > > >>>speculation is theological risky. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>These two questions are what I was getting at. To me they are > > > >>>>paradoxical...to you it is a mystery...questions for which the > >mormons > > > >>>>have no answer. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: ??? When did I say I did not have an answer, Perry? The > > > >>>question is whether the answer can be based on doctrinal support of > >the > > > >>>Standard Works (you specifically asked for Biblical evidence) or > > >whether > > > >>>the answer is based on speculation. Most (though not all, as I > > > >>>stipulated about the F&B nature of an exalted being) of the questions > > >you > > > >>>posed were only answerable by speculation. > > > >>> > > > >>>>You believe something happens (exalted god-men with possibly > >multiple > > > >>>>wives have spiritual babies)...you don't know exactly what or how it > > > >>>>happens...a true Mormon mystery. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: I think I've said this before, Perry.....I'm not a poster > >child > > > >>>for the Church. Nor am I the smartest Mormon boy in the LDS Church. > > > >>>Most of the questions you posed only seem like a mystery to you > >because > > > >>>they are not addressed by Scripture. And when you start speculating > > > >>>about the possible answers, your preconceived notions send you off on > >a > > > >>>tangent that is far removed from reality of what Mormons believe. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>I will forego asking for a prooftext since the Bible will not > > > >>>>substantiate any of this. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: Ohhhhhh....I guess you must have read my replies that said > >the > > > >>>same thing, eh. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>As for calling your bishop...I was seeking a referral > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: ??? Referral for what? Do you think the Bishop is a > >Bishop > > > >>>because he is doctrinally smarter than others in the congregation? > > > >>> > > > >>>>...which I much prefer to cold-calling. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>>And, since we both know you, it would give us some common ground on > > > >>>>which to strike up a conversation :-) > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>DAVEH: What is it you want to know from a Bishop that you don't > >think > > >I > > > >>>can explain, Perry? > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>Perry > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>>>Reply-To: [email protected] > > > >>>>>To: [email protected] > > > >>>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work > > > >>>>>Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:29:26 -0700 > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>Charles Perry Locke wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>>Dave, I do not want to lampoon you...I want to lampoon your belief > > > >>>>>>system. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>DAVEH: Ahhhhhh....a minor distinction. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>My wanting a prooftext is not hypocritical... > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>DAVEH: Really? Asking such a leading question of me in that > >manner > > >is > > > >>>>>a very pointed attack, as I see it. If I were to answer with a > > > >>>>>Biblical quote, you could then accurately accuse me of > >prooftexting, > > > >>>>>because that is what you asked for....a prooftext. First you > >accuse > > >me > > > >>>>>of such, then to affirm your assertions, you request me to supply a > > > >>>>>prooftext. To me that seems hypocritical. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> What if I asked you whether you prefer to beat your dog more > >than > > > >>>>>your wife? That would be a similar leading question. Do you want > >to > > > >>>>>be thought of as a dog beater....or....a wife beater? It would all > > >be > > > >>>>>speculation that produces a false conclusion, would it not? That's > > >why > > > >>>>>leading questions are not allowed in a court of law. Speculation > > > >>>>>presented in such a manner often times leads to false conclusions. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>>I believe that the Mormon view of this is heretical and that there > > >is > > > >>>>>>no biblical support for this position, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>DAVEH? Mormon view??? Other than the stipulation of God having > >a > > > >>>>>body of flesh and bone (which I've discussed in length > > >previously...and > > > >>>>>will do so again if you wish), there is no Mormon view of what you > > > >>>>>asked. As I said....it is all (excepting God having flesh and > >bones) > > > >>>>>pure speculation. I know of no Scripture or LDS teachings that > > >answer > > > >>>>>the questions you posed. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>>so any scripture you quote would be a prooftext. I want to know > >what > > > >>>>>>prooftexts the Mormons use to substantiate their beliefs on this. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>In the past I have been admonished by you: "if you want to know > >what > > > >>>>>>mormons beleive, ask a mormon". > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>DAVEH: And I've told you. To my knowledge, the LDS Church has no > > > >>>>>doctrines about the questions you've brought up. All I've ever > >heard > > > >>>>>discussed about such matters has been purely a matter of > >speculation. > > > >>>>>Now Perry....you've asked me, and I've told you. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>>That is what I am doing...giving you an opportunity to set me > > >straight > > > >>>>>>on your beliefs > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>DAVEH: FTR.......I repeat. I have no doctrinal beliefs about the > > > >>>>>questions you asked, excepting the exaltation and F&B attributes of > > > >>>>>God. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>>before I repeat them...and now you admonish me for having an > >active > > > >>>>>>imagination. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>Maybe Blaine will help us out on this one. Or, you can give me > >your > > > >>>>>>bishop's phone number and I'll call him and ask. Yes, I will say > > >that > > > >>>>>>you referred me. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>DAVEH: ??? For what purpose do you want to talk to my Bishop? > >You > > > >>>>>live in Orange County (I think), Perry. There must be one or two > > >down > > > >>>>>there. :-) Just pick up a phone book and let your fingers do > > >the > > > >>>>>walking if you want to speak to an LDS Bishop. I suspect he'll > > >affirm > > > >>>>>what I've just told you. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>I ask these questions because they seem to pose a contradiction > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>DAVEH: It is meaningless contradiction if it is speculation. I > > >can > > > >>>>>speculate that you would rather beat your dog than your wife....but > >I > > > >>>>>don't waste my time. Why would you? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>>...that men of flesh and bones and women of flesh and bones > >produce > > > >>>>>>spirit babies...or that men of fleash and bones conjugate with > > > >>>>>>spiritual women and produce spirit offspring. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>DAVEH: Like I said....you certainly have an active imagination, > > > >>>>>Perry. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>Perry > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>>>>>>Reply-To: [email protected] > > > >>>>>>>To: [email protected] > > > >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work > > > >>>>>>>Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:07:00 -0700 > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>DAVEH: My, you do have an active imagination, Perry. Except for > > >the > > > >>>>>>>belief that God is an exalted being that has a physical body of > > >flesh > > > >>>>>>>and bone (that houses a spiritual body), which is taught by LDS > > > >>>>>>>theology....the rest that you've mentioned below is pure > > >speculation > > > >>>>>>>and not supported by any Scripture of which I'm aware. Blaine is > >a > > > >>>>>>>bit smarter than me though....perhaps he knows something I don't. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> BTW........For a guy who previously criticized me several > >times > > > >>>>>>>for offering *prooftexts from the bible*, now you are requesting > > > >>>>>>>them?!?!?! Hmmmmm.....seems rather hypocritical to me, Perry. > >Do > > > >>>>>>>you really want to know what I believe, and what I believe > > >Scripture > > > >>>>>>>teaches, Perry.....or do you just want to lampoon me? > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>Charles Perry Locke wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>Dave (and Blaine if you are still around), > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> I have been wondering this for a few days, and need you help > >to > > > >>>>>>>>understand it. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> The mormon god is an exalted man, of flesh and bones, right? > > >And, > > > >>>>>>>>he has multiple (would you say a thousand or so?) spiritual > >wives, > > > >>>>>>>>right? And, he has sex with them (or did in the past) to produce > > > >>>>>>>>spirit babies, right? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> May I assume, then, that men who have become gods, yet are > > >still > > > >>>>>>>>flesh and bones, as you say the mormon god is, can have sex with > > > >>>>>>>>spiritual wives? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Or, are these wives exalted women of flesh and bones, too? If > > > >>>>>>>>they were mortal men and women who became exalted, and are of > > >flesh > > > >>>>>>>>and bones, how do they have spiritual babies? Why do they not > >have > > > >>>>>>>>flesh and bone babies? Are there any mormon prooftexts from the > > > >>>>>>>>bible that support this? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>Thanks. Inquiring minds want to know. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>Perry > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >-- > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >Dave Hansen > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >http://www.langlitz.com > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >If you wish to receive > > > >things I find interesting, > > > >I maintain six email lists... > > > >JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, > > > >STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > > > >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > > > >http://www.InnGlory.org > > > > > > > >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have > >a > > > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > > > > > > >---------- > > >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > > >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > > >http://www.InnGlory.org > > > > > >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > > > >---------- > > >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > > >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > > >http://www.InnGlory.org > > > > > >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > > > >---------- > >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > >http://www.InnGlory.org > > > >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > >---------- > >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > >http://www.InnGlory.org > > > >If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
