On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 00:28:51 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
JD writes:
In Col 1:17ff, we find the fact of reconciliation presented and the purpose of this reconciliation put forth. We have been reconciled so that we might be holy, blameless and above reproach in His sight. How can young people benefit from this teaching -- the full presentation; the fact and the purpose? Think about it: if we do not approach the effort to holiness with the view in mind of securing our salvation; if we understand that our salvation is secured by other influences -- then the purpose of holiness is for our own health, for our own good. If we are not saved via holiness, what, then is the benefit? Sanctification and spiritual maturity. Our youth need to see the blessing of holy pursuits and the scandal of selfish impatience.
jt: Rather we should be teaching them spiritual discernment along with the blessings of obedience and the curses that come upon those who rebel.
JD: Our youth need to see the blessing of holy pursuits and the scandal of selfish impatience
.
JD: No "rather" about it, Judy. i can't believe that are criticizing the statement above. Clearly, you are just wanting to argue. You don't think that young people to see the benefits of holy pursuits and the scandal of selfish impatience.? Incredible.
In Col 1:17ff, we find the fact of reconciliation presented and the purpose of this reconciliation put forth. We have been reconciled so that we might be holy, blameless and above reproach in His sight. How can young people benefit from this teaching -- the full presentation; the fact and the purpose? Think about it: if we do not approach the effort to holiness with the view in mind of securing our salvation; if we understand that our salvation is secured by other influences -- then the purpose of holiness is for our own health, for our own good. If we are not saved via holiness, what, then is the benefit? Sanctification and spiritual maturity. Our youth need to see the blessing of holy pursuits and the scandal of selfish impatience.
jt: Rather we should be teaching them spiritual discernment along with the blessings of obedience and the curses that come upon those who rebel.
JD: Our youth need to see the blessing of holy pursuits and the scandal of selfish impatience
.
JD: No "rather" about it, Judy. i can't believe that are criticizing the statement above. Clearly, you are just wanting to argue. You don't think that young people to see the benefits of holy pursuits and the scandal of selfish impatience.? Incredible.
jt: I find that most of your
statements stand on a faulty premise JD so I don't have a problem with fact
that Christ is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption or that He is
before all things and in Him all things exist. What I do have a problem with is your "larger
context" theology which makes scriptural truth of no effect in the lives of
ppl and causes both passivity and presumption. What we need to tell them
is to pursue the light while they have opportunity
because darkness is there to overtake them
because It's much more than a 'scandal' JD. It's a matter of life and/or
death although the way you & Kruger state it - Reconciliation is just layed
on us when we are unaware so who would ever guess "It's a narrow way that only a
few are going to find"
JD: Young people from miles around will flock to such a
message. You, my dear, have never worked with youth? And, by the
way, my remarks have nothing to do with license.
jt: What? I raised four of them and I didn't
do it in a vacuum JD - I know the pull of the world. This is why we
have an obligation to tell them the truth and teach them God's way ao that in
the end they will see it's value and return (when they find out what a pigpen
the world is under the glitter and decide they don't want to be one with
the pigs). They must choose to follow hard after righteousness and your
gospel takes away all motivation..
JD: If we understand that "reconciliation" is for all but
"salvation" is not always used in the grander sense, we will have no problem,
here. Perhaps this is another one of those problematic issues. Not for me,
but I can see that it would be for others. "Salvation"
is both esoteric in presentation and universal in Divine
Hope. Where you see "few"
saved, I see whole nations standing in His light ( Rev 21:24.)
jt: Are you telling me now that Jesus "The Word of God" was not aware of this when He said "strait is the gate and narrow is the way and only a few will find it?"
jt: Are you telling me now that Jesus "The Word of God" was not aware of this when He said "strait is the gate and narrow is the way and only a few will find it?"
JD: No, I am saying that YOU didn't know that.
jt: I didn't say it - He did (Matt 7:14) and since the
words he spoke were from the Father I'm not going to argue with that. The
word for "few" is oligos, same word as used in oligarchy (rule by few) as
in Supreme Court USA. Could be few in the light of all
who have ever lived, I don't know about that but when Jesus says "few" - I
believe He means "few"
JD: Hundreds of thousands, no doubt. heaven
is a big, big place.
jt: Neither of us have been there JD, nor were we the
ones seeing the vision of Revelation. Jesus also uses the days of Noah as
an example and look at how many were saved from the flood - 8 people. This
should give us food for thought lest we get carried away by our own vain
imaginations.
JD: -- I see myriad's of creatures (including human creatures) worshipping Him (Rev. 5:9-14). In Rev 7:9,10 I have this reading : After these things I looked and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count (what ??!!!!) from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in which robes and palm branches were in their hands and the cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation is to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb." Do you understand why I disagree with the notion that salvation is for only a few. Perhaps "the few" of which you speak (and it is definitely there in the biblical text) is a reference to the Poeple of Israel -- I don't know but I will say that heaven will be chucked full of people like you and me.
jt: Don't think so JD.
You are going to need more than "imputed" righteousness if you are going to
"judge angels" Scripture tells us that Noah judged his generation (in the
sense that he believed God (faith) and built an ark out there in the desert with
those around laughing at him indicating that his faith was not dead. He found
grace in the eyes of the Lord and was able to take his family
also. There's a great multitude which no
one could count (they estimate) at the Vatican right now filing by to kneel in
front of the corpse of a dead Pope - these are but few compared to the present
population of this world in our generation.
JD: And, so, Judy avoids the truth
of yet another passage of scripture. Why do you do this.
The Vatican crowd is not a comparison.
jt: How do you know it's not a
comparison? Did you see the vision? Are you in on something the rest
of us are not? All we know is what the scriptures reveal to us (and scripture is
not contradictory); the hidden things belong to the Lord.
JD: When Christian young people deliberately
choose to indulge themselves with no concern for others
(and that is exactly what they are doing), they make
themselves no different in function from those who hate God and give Him no
acclaim. THAT is the scandal, as I see it. It
is the scandal in my life, for sure. I was quite the
sexual activist in my younger days - me a Christian and
forever (it seemed) a leader within our youth group and at Christian
college.
jt: It's called walking after the flesh and the fruit in your life at that time was the fruit of the flesh. No fear of God is the result of believing the lie that there is no consequence for sin; the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind; and that everyone is going to heaven..
JD: One day, I asked myself this question: "how in the hell am I different from the atheists? I mean, I am doing these things ON PURPOSE, deliberately IGNORING my own conscience, just because I don't want to wait. I am insulting the very authority of God, my loving and patient spiritual Father - will He run out of patience with me? Will he conclude that I am none of His BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY I AM LIVING MY LIFE? "
jt: It's called walking after the flesh and the fruit in your life at that time was the fruit of the flesh. No fear of God is the result of believing the lie that there is no consequence for sin; the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind; and that everyone is going to heaven..
JD: One day, I asked myself this question: "how in the hell am I different from the atheists? I mean, I am doing these things ON PURPOSE, deliberately IGNORING my own conscience, just because I don't want to wait. I am insulting the very authority of God, my loving and patient spiritual Father - will He run out of patience with me? Will he conclude that I am none of His BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY I AM LIVING MY LIFE? "
jt: Yes, if you did not repent He would
(this is why we need repentance in our lives) You wouldn't be in
line to inherit God's Kingdom - that's for sure. Fornicators don't make it
and under the Old Covenant presumptuous sinners were cut off.
JD: Spoken well by one who is works
salvationist. but that is why I like you.
jt: There is no other kind of salvation JD; I hate that
you have been wounded by Church ppl who failed to show you love. However, this
does not change the basic fact that "so called faith" without corresponding
action which some call "works" is DEAD. Just like the body without the
spirit is DEAD. And there will be no death in heaven. We need to
agree with God and call things what He calls them and so - refrain from putting
our own spin (or Krugers) on His words.
JD: Even a loving and patient father wonders these things when he sees his own destroying their lives and, after all is said and done, CANNOT STOP THEM. And so Christ stands over the city and weeps. He CANNOT COMMAND FAITH. Grace is free but not cheap and we all have to make that concept a truth in our lives.
jt: So what's the concept JD and what do you tell the ppl you counsel to aid them in becoming free from their misery and addictions?
JD: There are no typical answers, Judy.
jt: There are answers JD and they should be typical even if sadly they are not in our
generation.
JD: Of
course. What do you think I do when in conference? Tell
them, "Thanks anyway -- I have no solutions." ????
jt: You've said as much in the past ie: that ppl have to just
accept the truth (your big picture) and keep their addictions.
For what purpose was the Son of God manifest? Wasn't it to
destroy the work of the evil one so the captives could be made free?
JD: Yes and that happened by the time of the
ascension.
jt: It also happened in the life and
ministry of Jesus on this earth and in the lives and ministries of His disciples
(the 70 and also the apostles); it should be normal Christianity for us as well
because Jesus said that the works He did we would do also; but so long as we
tenaciously cling to doctrines of men the Word of God will be of no effect in
our lives. If we are
not seeing captives being made free then there is a big disconnect in our
understanding and we are not where we should be in Christ at all, no matter what
Kruger and Torrance and Lance say.
JD: If we are not
seeing captives being made free, we have a false god.
jt: We can know upon good authority that the
Kingdom of God has not (so far) come upon us and we are walking in ignorance or
faith that is dead. You sure couldn't ask anyone to believe you for your
"works sake" could you? Horrors!!!
judyt.
