On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:22:42 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD in red in memory of the
"fires of hell"
Extraordinary JD - Could it be premonition? I've never
seen them so have no memory to pull from ....
jt: I find that most of your statements stand on a faulty premise JD so I don't have a problem with fact that Christ is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption or that He is before all things and in Him all things exist. What I do have a problem with is your "larger context" theology which makes scriptural truth of no effect in the lives of ppl and causes both passivity and presumption.
If you actually ever have the privilege of
hearing me preach - you will change your mind about the passitity and
presumption thingy.
jt: How is what you preach different
from the beliefs you have posted on the TT list?
What we need to tell them is to
pursue the light while they have opportunity because darkness is there to
overtake them because It's much more than a 'scandal' JD. It's a matter of
life and/or death although the way you &Kruger state it - Reconciliation is
just layed on us when we are unaware so who would ever guess "It's a narrow way
that only a few are going to find"
Christ simply did not do this sort of thing
when dealing with the masses -- He had little patience, it seems,
with "leadership," but great patience with the common joe.
jt: He didn't get angry with the
"common joe" for holding the truth in unrighteousness as the "leaders" were
doing but ATST He never compromised truth for them either. He let the rich young
ruler (who was not willing to part with what had become an idol in his heart)
leave and He was sad about it but didn't try to manipulate him or to chase him
down and put the pressure on to change his mind.
I have seen the diferrence between youth
groups built on love and compassion and the Word and those built on
fear.
jt: There is a healthy fear in love and there is a
flesh compassion that is void of the Word and gives ppl a false
security.
But how do works salvationists count
success?
jt: I wouldn't know, not being a
"works salvationist" You would know more about this than me since you say
you have come out of such a group.
The fewer the people involved, the more successful they
consider their programs. Wonderful.
jt: BSF is the only "program" I have anything to do
with and from what I hear they do not have the "few"
ppl problem.
jt: I didn't say it - He did (Matt 7:14) and since the words he spoke were from the Father I'm not going to argue with that. The word for "few" is oligos, same word as used in oligarchy (rule by few) as in Supreme Court USA. Could be few in the light of all who have ever lived, I don't know about that but when Jesus says "few" - I believe He means "few"
JD: "Few" includes far more people
that you suppose -- Rev 5:9ff rocks
!!!!
Do you understand why I disagree with the notion that salvation is for only a few. Perhaps "the few" of which you speak (and it is definitely there in the biblical text) is a reference to the Poeple of Israel -- I don't know but I will say that heaven will be chucked full of people like you and me.
Do you understand why I disagree with the notion that salvation is for only a few. Perhaps "the few" of which you speak (and it is definitely there in the biblical text) is a reference to the Poeple of Israel -- I don't know but I will say that heaven will be chucked full of people like you and me.
jt: It's called walking after the flesh and the fruit in your life at that time was the fruit of the flesh. No fear of God is the result of believing the lie that there is no consequence for sin; the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of all mankind; and that everyone is going to heaven..
Your stubborness and rebellion is no worse than
anything in my life, real or imagined !!!!! Join me in this
prayer: "Lord, thanks for your patient work of salvation in my
life."
jt: Are you now making
yourself my judge JD - adding one more sin to the list? I don't stand or
fall before you for which I am very thankful..
JD: One day, I asked myself this question: "how in the hell am I different from the atheists? I mean, I am doing these things ON PURPOSE, deliberately IGNORING my own conscience, just because I don't want to wait. I am insulting the very authority of God, my loving and patient spiritual Father - will He run out of patience with me? Will he conclude that I am none of His BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY I AM LIVING MY LIFE? "
jt: Yes, if you did not repent He would (this is why we need repentance in our lives) You wouldn't be in line to inherit God's Kingdom - that's for sure. Fornicators don't make it and under the Old Covenant presumptuous sinners were cut off.
JD: Spoken well by one who is works salvationist. but that is why I like you.
jt: There is no other kind of salvation JD;
Works salvation is not the
comparision. Salvation through grace by faith in the place of our
righteousness is the plan our works demonstrate this reality. They
are not required unless you argue that I am lost until I visit the fatherless
and show impartiality to the next person who visits the worship
service.
jt: I have never advocated "self righteous
works" which is what I suspect you are saying when you use the term "works"
righteousness. I am for obedience without which it is impossible to "do"
righteousness. You can talk it all day but without any corresponding action it
is dead, dead, dead as a doornail .... I hate that
you have been wounded by Church ppl who failed to show you love. However, this
does not change the basic fact that "so called faith" without corresponding
action which some call "works" is not where it's at.
JD: James calls it "works" and no one at my end of
the aisle disagrees. I certianly do not.
jt: Just like the body without
the spirit is DEAD.
JD: Yes,
yes -- do I breathe because of a command or because of the life that
is within ???? !!!!!!!!!!
jt: And now to keep from disturbing our
theology we move back from the spiritual into the natural; James did not
write about "natural life" JD. God's Kingdom is a spiritual
household. And there will be
no death in heaven. We need to agree with God and call things what He
calls them and so - refrain from putting our own spin (or Krugers) on His
words.
JD: Of course. What do you think I do when in conference? Tell them, "Thanks anyway -- I have no solutions." ????
jt: You've said as much in the past ie:
JD: Of course. What do you think I do when in conference? Tell them, "Thanks anyway -- I have no solutions." ????
jt: You've said as much in the past ie:
This is simply not true. And in my
personal ministry - such never happens.
that ppl have to just accept
the truth (your big picture) and keep their addictions.
This has nothing to do with what I believe
or what I have ever said.
For what purpose was the Son of God manifest?
John 3:16.
Wasn't it to destroy the work of the evil one so the
captives could be made free?
JD: Yes and that happened by the time of the ascension.
jt: It also happened in the life and ministry of Jesus on this earth and in the lives and ministries of His disciples (the 70 and also the apostles);
JD: Yes and that happened by the time of the ascension.
jt: It also happened in the life and ministry of Jesus on this earth and in the lives and ministries of His disciples (the 70 and also the apostles);
Guess again -- Christ is the only
sacrifice. It was His effort that presents a once and for all time
solution. We preach the benefit of that circumstance --
He created the blessing and we only share in its grace. Join
us !!!
jt: then who was going around healing before
the ascension and asking ppl to "believe me for the works sake?"
This should be normal Christianity for us
too because Jesus said that the works He did we would do also; but so long
as we tenaciously cling to doctrines of men the Word of God will be of no effect
in our lives. If we are not seeing captives being made free then there is a big
disconnect in our understanding and we are not where we should be in Christ at
all, no matter what Kruger and Torrance and Lance say.
