Sounds kinda word by word to me.
Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the LORD in the ears of the people in the LORD's house
Sounds like the written words are the words of God
Baruch the son of Neriah did according to all that Jeremiah the prophet commanded him, reading in the book the words of the LORD in the LORD's house.
Simple And they asked Baruch, saying, Tell us now, How didst thou write all these words at his mouth? Then Baruch answered them, He pronounced all these words unto me with his mouth, and I wrote them with ink in the book.
Some can't stand what it says so they destroy, hide or redifine the words: And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.
Hebrews 12 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
Caroline Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It is highly unlikely that Jesus spoke to Peter in Greek. The question is why did the Spirit record the conversation this way. Or do we believe scripture is generally inspired but not word-by-word inspired? :-)Hesed, Agape, Caritas,Caroline----- Original Message -----From: Kevin DeeganSent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:08 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re [Truth Talk] Saved -- Salvation -- and the pigpenTAKE THE GREEK WORD STUDY TEST BELOW
http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/nuggets.html
Greek words ''agape" and "phileo". Both of which are translated "love" in John 21:15-17.15 ''So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord: thou knowest that l love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord,thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."
We have all heard this passage expounded by a pseudoscholar (sometimes in complete sincerity due to acceptance of bad teaching). The presentation is made that "agape" in Greek speaks of a deep, intimate, selfless love. "Phileo" on the other hand is little more than a casual "friendly" type of love. Our scholar then laments, almost tearfully, the constraints of the English language. He points out that the Lord actually says, "Peter...lovest ("agape") thou me (with a deep, intimate, selfless love) more than these?"
Peter responds, "Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love (phileo ) thee (with a casual, friendly type of love).
Our Bible critic points out that the Lord, not receiving the answer that He desires, asks again.
"Simon, son of Jonas, lovest ("agape") thou me?"
Peter, it is then pointed out, is unwilling to commit himself to such a deep relationship so he responds again.
"Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love ("phileo") thee."
At this point our Bible corrector points out that a saddened Saviour gives in to Peter's lack of commitment and changes His own choice of Greek words to "phileo."
"Simon, son of Jonas, lovest ("phileo") thou me?"
This sudden change supposedly shocks Peter into seeing his own spiritual infidelity to the Lord. Thus, saddened he answers.
"... thou knowest that I love ("phileo") thee."
Our false teacher then points out to his audience that there is no way to attain such depth of meaning from this passage using only the feeble English. Once more the trusty "Greek" has enlightened us as English can never do!
This presentation is tremendously effective and has only ONE flaw. The definitions given for "agape" and "phileo" are TOTALLY UNTRUE!
I am about to make a statement concerning "agape" and "phileo" which is not based on prejudice or opinion. It is based on careful honest study of the way in which "agape" and "phileo" were used in the Bible ('Our final authority in all matters of faith and practice) by Jesus Christ Himself and the New Testament writers.
The statement is this: There was absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in New Testament times between "agape" and "phileo" and that BOTH are used interchangeably by Jesus Christ and the writers of the New Testament. REGARDLESS of what Greek grammars, Greek teachers and Greek preachers may say!
If you have been steeped in the false teaching of "agape" and "phileo" by your college professor or pastor, you will immediately (and with much prejudice) reject my supposition. ("How could such godly men be wrong?'' Right?)
Yet, I will not attempt to prove it is true. The proof will come from Jesus Christ, Paul, Peter and John, and any other New Testament writer that I could have chosen for the comparison. But wait! They are not my final witnesses. The final and most weighty argument will be waged by YOU!
For years I have been giving a test in Bible Conferences in which I speak concerning this false teaching of "agape" and "phileo". A copy of this test is reproduced below. IF you have the courage and IF you can be honest with God and yourself, feel free to take it. Here's how it goes.
In part #I, I have reproduced quotes from the New Testament which were made by Jesus Christ using "agape'' and "phileo". Without looking at a Greek New Testament or Concordance or any other help, use the false rules for "agape" and "philco" given by critics of the English Bible. Read the quote. Decide whether Jesus is referring to "agape" love (deep, intimate, selfless love) or "phileo'' love (casual, friendly love). Then put an "A" for agape or "P" for phileo in the blank before the quote.
Part #II is identical to part #I except that the quotes are taken from various New Testament writers. Do the same as in part one, putting an "A" for agape and a "P" for phileo, using only the critics' definition of these words. No guessing, no hunches. Use only their own rule.
JOHN 21:15-17 - AGAPE vs. PHILEO
INSTRUCTIONS:
1. Read the Bible quote.
2. Put an A or P in the blank before the quote to signify your choice of the Greek word used, AGAPE or PHILEO.
DEFINITIONS:
AGAPE love: Deep, intimate, selfless love
PHILEO love: Casual "friendly" love.
I - Comparison: How Jesus used AGAPE and PHILEO.
1. Luke 11:42 the love of God
2. John 5:42 the love of God
3. Matt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother
4. Rev 3:9 to know that l have loved
5. Rev 3:19 As many as l love
6. Matt 23:6 love the uppermost. rooms
7. John 12:25 He that loveth his life
8. Luke 11:43 ye love the uppermost seats
9. John 5:20 the Father loveth the Son
10. John 16:27 the Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved me
II - Comparison: How other New Testament writers used AGAPE and PHILEO.
l. II Tim. 3:4 of pleasures more than of God
2. John 11:5 Jesus loved Martha
3 John 20:2 the other disciple whom Jesus loved
4 I Cor. 16:22 If any man love not the Lord
5. Rom. 5:8 But God commendeth his love
6. I Cor. 16:24 My love be with you all
7. II Tim. 1:7 of power, and of love, and...
8. Rom. 12:10 one to another with brotherly love
9. II Thes. 3:12 abound in love one toward another\
10. Titus 2:4 women to be sober, to love their husbands
11. Eph. 5:28 So ought men to love their wives
12. I Peter 2:17 Love the brotherhood
13. Heb. 13:1 Let brotherly love continue
14. Titus 3:4 and love of God our Saviour
15. I John 2:5 in him verily is the love of God perfected
If you have taken the test and if you have been honest, you have found that the TRUTH of the matter is that neither Jesus nor any of the New Testament writers acknowledged the false rule foisted on us by heady and high-minded Bible critics.
Thus we see that this little "nugget" is made only of "FOOL'S GOLD" and has never really existed except in the deluded minds of men.
Whom will you believe? Jesus Christ or your Greek professor?
Here are the answers (A signifies "agape;" P signifies "phileo"):
JOHN 21:15-17 AGAPE vs PHILEO
I - Comparison: How Jesus used AGAPE and PHILEO.
A 1. Luke 11:42 the love of God
A 2. John 5:42 the love of God
P 3. Matt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother
A 4. Rev 3:9 to know that rhave loved
P 5. Rev 3:19 As many as I love
P 6. Matt 23:6 love the uppermost rooms
P 7. John 12:25 He that loveth his life
A 8. Luke 11:43 ye love the uppermost seats
P 9. John 5:20 the Father loveth the Son
P 10. John 16:27 the Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved meII - Comparison: How other New Testament writers used AGAPE and PHILEO.
P 1. II Tim 3:4 of pleasures more than of God
A 2. John 11:5 Jesus loved Martha
P 3. John 20:2 the other disciples whom Jesus loved
P 4. I Cor 16:22 If any man love not the Lord
A 5. Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love
A 6. I Cor 16:24 My love be with you all
A 7. II Tim 1:7 of power, and of love, and. ..
P 8. Rom 12:10 one to another with brotherly love
A 9. II Thes 3:12 abound in love one toward another
P 10. Titus 2:4 women to be sober, to love their husbands
A 11. Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives
A 12. I Peter 2:17 Love the brotherhood
P 13. Heb 13:1 Let brotherly love continue
P 14. Titus 3:4 and love of God our Saviour
A 15. I John 2:5 in him verily is the love of God perfected
Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I use them to communicate with people who do not accept God's Word as is, without these extra trappings.He doesn't forbid it but if we follow His own example we would not need to. He quoted the Old Covenantscriptures all the time without qualifying anything, even using God's Word as a two edged sword to defeatSatan in the wilderness. Imagine that!!! jtOn Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:33:09 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:Judy writes > He doesn't expect this from us and this is why He has made His Word available to us in our generation in the English language.If you truly believe this, Judy, then why just this morning were you nuancing the differences between the Greek words "philos" and "agape"? Our English Bibles translate both as "love": Why if God "has made his Word available to us in our generation in the English language," and this --, along with the Holy Spirit -- is all we need to gain understanding, did you present us with a "word study" on the meaning of Greek words? Oh, and weren't you also the one who earlier today wrote to John, saying: "I don't see Jesus leaving any admonition about ... Word Studies in order to understand the meaning of His Word"? It looks to me like you are operating under a double standard. You think it's okay when you nuance the meaning of words, but when others do it, they are using "qualifiers as an excuse to make the Word of God say what [they] want it to ... '"Seems hypocritical to me, Judy. Will you please explain to us why it is not?Bill----- Original Message -----From: Judy TaylorSent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:03 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re [Truth Talk] Saved -- Salvation -- and the pigpenOn Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:41:30 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:Maybe, then, Judy, we needn't even bother to read the Bible in our own language. We could "read" it in Inuktitutand the Holy Spirit could just siphon the content into our brains without ANY of the normal means of linguistic processing.Debbie, please tell me you are being silly rather than serious here...The point being (as laid out in an earlier post) that making use of context is something we all do every day in understandinganything we hear or read. But in this case, we are so far away from the context (Jesus' hearers weren't) that we have to makea conscious effort to go after it. Of course it will STILL be necessary for the Holy Spirit to enlighten and enliven us, as it wasfor Jesus' hearers back then; but why would he expect us to deliberately short-circuit the normal process of understandinglanguage? DebbieHe doesn't expect this from us and this is why He has made His Word available to us in our generation in the English language. However, an English speaking person can read an English Bible and a Greek speaking person can read a Greek Bible with both knowing all about Israel's history and local customs and yet it will still be a closed book without the ministry of the Holy Spirit which is not so with what we read and what we hear every day on TV and in the newspaper.It's something to think about...JudytFrom: Judy TaylorOn Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:48:33 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Do you use biblcial, historical and cultural context to help understand the meaning of words?Or do you see that as a devise of the uninspired? JDI don't see Jesus leaving any admonition about history, culture, and Word Studies in order to understand the meaningof His Word. He sent the Holy Spirit to give us understanding. I don't know what Kevin's response will be but I see the above qualifiers as an excuse to make the Word of God say what you want it to and conform it to strange and different doctrines rather than receive the "faith once delivered to the saints". jtIn a message dated 4/14/2005 4:36:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Does the "context" of your writings demand that we REDFINE your words also?
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