Debbie wrote: > ... it's transformed that our bodies will be, not > "discarded".
Good point, but doesn't transformation of this sort truly imply a discarding of our bodies? The caterpillar that transforms into a butterfly might be said to be discarding his previous body. Think about it. The previous body was large with very different digestive system and diet requirements and without the ability of flight. Paul wrote that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and goes to great lengths to explain the great difference between the earthly body and the spiritual body. Debbie wrote: > Transformation, and not discard, is the whole > point of salvation. Interesting perspective. Can you elaborate? I see a very different viewpoint in Scripture. The body must die before it is transformed. That is an important issue concerning our salvation (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:36 ff.). Debbie wrote: > Don't forget, there was no body left > behind by Jesus anywhere. True, just as a butterfly does not leave his old body behind. Debbie wrote: > Interesting you should say this, David, because some of us > (well, OK, I!) have written previously that we won't be > through with sin until our salvation is complete, i.e., until > the resurrection; we're part of a groaning creation. I agree with this perspective, which is why I constantly object to the label of "sinless perfection." Debbie wrote: > That's one reason I am rather incredulous about your > 'not sinning'. But not sinning and not having to deal with sin are two different issues. A major reason Jesus Christ came was to conquer sin for us. Debbie wrote: > If sin resides in our bodies, then we will continue > to struggle with it while we now live. How not? Yes, we do continue to struggle with sin every day. Jesus Christ did too. He was fully human. However, struggling against sin does not mean succumbing to it. Jesus Christ proved this by living in complete victory over sin, and the power of his life may be received by us who believe in him. Debbie wrote: > To pretend we can escape our bodies > now, is the gnosticism. Do you have a link for this idea? The term "gnosticism" is a very broad term that includes a wide variety of beliefs. I don't remember reading of any gnostics who claimed to have victory over sin in the way Izzy is talking about, but I'm certainly no expert in this field. Most of them did emphasize dualism to a great degree, so much so that some taught that one could indulge the flesh and not be sinning because their spirit was not sinning. They emphasized gaining knowledge through the spirit and escaping the pitfalls of the material world, including the flesh, but the way they did so is far different than anything Izzy wrote. Surely you must recognize this. The belief in dualism does not make one a gnostic. Paul taught that there was no good thing in the flesh and that we should mortify the deeds of the body on a daily basis. He further taught that we should seek the things of the spirit and that this is how we apprehend God and partake of life. This is classic dualism, is it not? Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
