DAVEH: > Salvation experience? What is that? > Please explain. Being saved from sin and from this world system. When a person is born from above, born of the spirit and not just of the water, he experiences an internal change. The burden of sin is lifted from him. Guilt is gone. He feels as if he has never sinned before. He is now free to serve God in a new way. This is the salvation experience.
David Miller wrote: >> Part of the difficulty is that you see salvation as only >> being in the future, so you do not understand how their >> receiving of the Holy Spirit indicates that they were >> redeemed (John 14:17 - the world cannot receive the >> Holy Spirit). DAVEH: > Why do you conclude they were saved by that event? > How do you define salvation? Do you understand it > to be the moment that the HG enters one's body? > IF so, do you have a passage to support that theory? I define salvation as the moment they experience being born again, born from above this time, of the Spirit. They may be baptized in the Holy Spirit at that time, or that may happen later, but they must be saved before they receive the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that only those who are clean may receive the Holy Spirit (compare John 14:17 & 15:3). David Miller wrote: >> I am not aware of even one verse that you can bring >> up that contradicts my perspective on baptism. >> If you think you have one, please bring it up. DAVEH: > Mk 16:16........ > He that believeth AND is baptized SHALL be saved; > but he that believeth not shall be damned. This passage does not contradict my perspective at all. I believe that baptism is a vehicle used to express saving faith in Christ, but I do not believe that without it saving faith cannot find expression. I tried explaining this before. Let me try a different analogy. Consider the logic of the following sentence: "Bananas and strawberries will taste good." Does this sentence mean that one must have strawberries in order for something to taste good? No. Of course, not. One might have only bananas and it will taste good. The logic of Mark 16:16 does not necessitate baptism. It merely expresses that if those who believe and are baptized will be saved. It does not say that only those who believe and are baptized will be saved. DaveH wrote: > FWIW....I remember our discussion of vs 16 some years > ago included one of the few times I've quoted a BoM > passage (at your request, as I remember) as evidence > in support of what Mark said (AND is baptized), yet > not accepted by a majority of Christians. Yes, and that passage certainly DOES make baptism necessary. If it were Scripture, I would have to believe it, but I cannot reconcile it with the passage in Acts where Cornelius household received salvation before being baptized. Therefore, it is one more reason why I do not believe that the book of Mormon is inspired. DaveH wrote: > At times I find some of the answers to be illogical, as in > the example above of vs 16. I wish you would work harder to communicate, because I do not believe that I have ever been illogical about Mark 16:16. DAVEH: > I could be wrong, but I thought we discussed this long ago. Yes we did. DaveH wrote: > I don't see why you would think this account would indicate > Cornelius' household was saved. Because of John 14:17 saying that the world cannot receive the Spirit because it does not see him or know him. One must be born from above before he can see the kingdom of God. Cornelius household experienced this and was the reason Peter gave for why he baptized them. DAVEH: > LDS theology allows for the HG to influence many people, > without salvation being immediately apparent. Yes, so does mine, but not RECEIVING the Holy Spirit. This is strictly a New Covenant experience. DaveH wrote: > For instance....Do you believe salvation existed > before Jesus died? Yes. DaveH wrote: > (If so...then why was Christ's death necessary?) Sorry, no time to explain all this right now. Let's just say that his becoming mortal made his death certain, and so people began experiencing salvation after John the Baptist's ministry began but before Jesus died on the cross. DaveH wrote: > If salvation did not happen prior to that time, then would > you suggest that Mary was saved because the HG came > upon her? (Lk 1:35) No. People in the older covenant were filled with the Holy Spirit and he came upon them and caused them to prophecy, but Jesus promised something different after he was resurrected, and this experience called "receiving the Holy Spirit" or being "baptized with the Holy Spirit" is distinctly New Covenant, post resurrection of Christ. DAVEH: > Second, even with a physically resurrected body, > full salvation does not occur until after the Judgment, > and we are allowed to enter heaven. Do you not > remember me saying to effect that I believe the > ultimate salvation is entry into heaven to be in the > presence of God? Yes, I do remember that, but I guess I did not see the significance of separating it from the resurrection experience. Thanks for clarifying that. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
