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Oh, I forgot one other thing: their understanding
of common grace, which allows them to recognize and appreciate the value
and truth of what is done or produced by nonChristians. If that seems
ironic, it is only because Calvinist theology is misunderstood. Common
grace is an important tenet of that tradition and I haven't seen it to
the same extent among other evangelicals, at least not until very
recently.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts
on Genesis 1
I don't subscribe to double
predestination, but I don't think Calvin's followers are idiots or
deceived, at least no more than the rest of us! And probably less so. There is
a great deal more to Calvinism than this. To return to a previous analogy: our
careful theologies are like various cartographic projections of a spherical
earth onto a flat sheet of paper--they all entail distortions, especially at
the edges. Double predestination is in the corner of the "Calvinist
Projection"; at the same time, it's only one short logical step from the idea
that our being at the Table is God's grace and choice, not earned by any act
or attitude of ours (even faith being a gift). If it is false, it is a good
warning of the results of boxing God in logically.
On the other hand, this view prevents us from
judging people and thinking ourselves superior to those who are not
believers. It leaves people and the whole question of their eternal
destiny in God's hands where they belong. I also sometimes wonder to
what extent our righteous horror at predestination is due to our thinking
being permeated by the secular liberal doctrine (liberal in the social
philosophical sense, not theological) of the free choice of the
individual.
More than any other single group of Christians I
know, Calvin's contemporary followers have a profound understanding
of:
1. covenant
2. the unity of Old and New Testaments in a
single redemptive story
3. grace as the ground of our
salvation
4. community
5. the ministry of reconciliation and
restoration, involving all aspects of personal and public life and all of
creation.
They are, among the Christians I know (and I know
them very well), the most whole-heartedly and consistently
engaged in this ministry. They believe God is for the world and they
therefore live hopefully in the world. They do not compartmentalize and
do not take a narrow, moralistic stance on social issues. They make it their
task to really understand the culture we live in and be salt and light in
it, working on solutions instead of just talking. They know the value of
Christian scholarship and are responsible for a great deal of it. And they
were doing this long before it became cool among other evangelicals.
By comparison, I find the theology and
practice of other evangelicals to be rather dilettantish a lot of the time.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:06
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk Watts
on Genesis 1
But does anyone ever choose hell - eternal
damnation and eternal conscious torture? Some people may feel that that's my
destination (along with a lot of Evangelicals - Brian McLaren, Dallas
Willard, N.T. Wright) but we all believe we're choosing to follow Christ. Do
people make a choice and then, when the curtain pulls back...do they get
exactly what they chose, better than what they thought they deserved or
worse than what they imagined?
Calvin, along with Luther, shaped Western
Protestant Christianity. At one time, the City of Geneva invited him to run
their city. I can't imagine any American city inviting a fundamentalist
Christian to write all their laws and administer their judicial system but
that's what Geneva did. But you're right when you said "anyone who follows
Calvin is deceived or an idiot or both". Some people who said milder things
got burnt at the stake. Calvinism was synonymous with Christianity. It is
only very recently that fundamentalist Christians started to question the
theology.
Love,
Caroline
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 6:19
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Rikk
Watts on Genesis 1
Caroline Wong wrote:
Okay, you got me there, Terry. That should
be Romans 11:25-27. But here is the rest of the passage in KJV (verses
28 to 32)
"As
concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching
the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For
the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in
times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through
their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that
through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath
concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon
all."
Now, what you wrote is valid and solid
thinking and a lot of people believe that. But a lot of people
considered the rest of the passage and felt that Israel, as a chosen
people, have no choice but be saved and this is God's sovereign choice.
It is irresistible grace and unconditional election. (Part of Calvin's
theology)
So on one hand: possible scenario that all
Jews are born destined for hell from 33 AD until a day in the future
when the full number of Gentiles come in and then Jesus is revealed to
them as their Messiah. On another hand, possible scenario that they are
saved no matter what because it pleases God to do so. If someone can
answer "why would God set it up this way?" for either scenario, then a
lot of answers to age old questions (from why the tree of knowledge in
the garden to why do we suffer to why are some born handicapped or with
cancer) fall into place. Many theologians have attempted to formulate a
theodicy that matches what they believe about God and the bible. The
entire branch is called theodicy and it's not a simple
formulation.
Love,
Caroline ==================================================================
I
am not a theologian and have no idea what theodicy might mean but there is
a third scenario that makes more sense than either of the two above.
All Jews were never destined for Hell at any time. Those who go
there do it by choice, just as you and I would. The same thing
applies to those who are saved. The old "Choose who you will serve"
thing. God is not willing that any be lost, but just as I would
never have forced my wife to be my wife, Christ will not force any to be
His bride. Anyone who follows Calvin is deceived or an idiot or
both. In my opinion, during the tribulation, the vast majority of
the Jews living during that time will be killed. Those who are left
will believe. God always makes certain that a remnant remain.
No one will ever eradicate the Jews, but at the end, I believe they will
come closer than they have for a long
time.
Terry
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