Blaine: Kevin, WHY do you write all this voluminous stuff? Do you really
think I or anyone else has time to read it? I read your short to-the-point
messages, but . . . with time being of the essence, I could not possibly
read all this, much less reply to it. Former TruthTalk instructions were to
KEEP IT SHORT!!! Just because you have lots of time, doesn't mean we all do.
Since you have so much time, could you please go through this and narrow it
down to a single paragraph, or even two--that I could handle.
Titus 3:5-6 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to
his mercy he SAVED us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy
Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; THAT
BEING JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE...
What is this washing is it WATER? or the Holy Ghost? Justified & Saved by the
regenerating power and renewing of the Holy Ghost given by Jesus Christ. Where
is the Baptism requirement?
The BIBLE IS CLEAR SALVATION IS BY FAITH
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For
God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:15-16.
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God" John 3:18.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not
the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" John 3:36.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him
that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but
is passed from death unto life" John 5:24.
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son,
and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the
last day" John 6:40.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
John 6:47.
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever
believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" Acts 10:43.
Are you saved or LOST?
"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and
thy house" Acts 16:31.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the
gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" Ephesians 2:8-9.
BAPTISM as a REPRESENTATION
Baptism is a "LIKENESS" (Romans 6:5) a representation of something. While not
directly called a sign, there are examples of representations throughout the
scripture.
Rom 6 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that LIKE as
Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also
should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the
LIKENESS of his death, we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection
LIKENESS: 1. The state, quality, or fact of being like; resemblance. 2. An
imitative appearance; a semblance. 3. A pictorial, graphic, or sculptured
representation of something; an image.
Baptism pictures the burial and the resurrection of Christ and our
identification with His death, burial and resurrection.
Abraham recieved the sign of circumcision a representation of being right with
god through the faith he had "yet being UNcircumcised"
RM 4 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of
the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of
all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might
be imputed unto them also:
Baptism is called a like FIGURE 1 Peter 3:21
The Lord's supper is a representation also. Surely no one but the RCC believes
you eat his literal body & blood!
SOME SUPPOSED PROOF TEXTS
Acts 2:38 "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins"
The little Greek word �eis� is translated in the New Testament in the following
ways and number of times: �against� 25, �among� 16, �at� 20, �for� 91, �in�
131, �into� 571, �that� 30, �on� 57, �to� 282, �toward� 32, �unto� 208, and
�upon� 25.
The catagories of meanings are Direction, Position, Relation, Cause, and
Purpose.
Restorationists interpret �eis� as �for� in Acts 2:38 to mean �in order to,�
thus causing a person to be baptized �in order to� be saved or to receive
remission of sins.
The scriptures still teach that it is thru BELIEF that we are Justified, made
righteous and saved.
Acts 10:43 "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name
whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Lets take a look at some different usages in the English of the word "for"
I called the doctor for some medicine (in order to)
I called the doctor for my child (in behalf of)
I called the doctor for my sickness (on account of)
I called the doctor for the bill (with respect to)
The context of the sentence and it's structure determine the correct reading.
For example:
Matt. 12:41.�The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation,
and shall condemn it: because they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonas;
and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.�
They repented in order to preaching, is non sensical. They repented not �in
order� to Jonah�s preaching, but �because of� the preaching of Jonah. We could
repeat this test with other verses, the sentence determines the meaning.
Dr. Carl E. Sadler:
The Greek word �eis� about which all this contention is in Acts 2:38 is used
with the word baptize or word baptism in three other passages: In Matt. 3:11,
you have baptism eis repentance. Eis cannot mean in order to there, but because
of repentance. Every Campbellite, Mormon, and others who teach baptism in order
for remission of sin admits that repentance comes before baptism. In Romans
6:3, you find the expression baptism eis the death of Jesus. Eis cannot mean in
order to there, but must mean because of; both because Christ was already dead
and raised again, and because in baptism we declare that we died with Him, and
have been raised with Him. In I Cor. 10:2, we have the expression eis Moses.
Eis cannot mean in order to there, because they were not baptized in the cloud
and in the sea in order to get Moses to be their leader, but because he was
their leader. He had already led them out of Egypt. If baptism eis repentance
in Matt. 3:11 means be baptized because they repented, if baptism, or be
baptized eis the death of Christ me
ans be baptized because Christ died and we died with Him, if �were baptized eis
Moses� in I Cor. 10:2 means they were baptized because Moses was their leader,
then it follows conclusively that �be baptized eis remission� in Acts 2:38 must
mean be baptized because your sins have been remitted.
Dr. Sadler: �The argument that the Campbellites make that the expression, for
remission of, modifies both verbs, repent and be baptized, won�t hold water.
Repent is a plural verb, active voice, second person, has ye for its subject,
and was addressed to the whole crowd. Be baptized is a singular verb, passive
voice, third person, and has for its subject, not the whole crowd, but only
such as had repented and believed. For remission does not modify both verbs. It
modifies baptized only, and means that everyone who has repented and trusted in
Christ is commanded to be baptized because his sins are remitted.�
Romans 6:3 �Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus
Christ...�
�INTO� is the same Greek word �eis.� We are not saved by being �baptized INTO
Jesus Christ,� as false teachers would have you to believe.
I Corinthians 10:1,2 speaks of Israel�s passing through the Red Sea, �And were
all baptized UNTO[EIS] Moses in the cloud and in the sea.�
They were not SAVED at the red sea, their salvation is found in Exodus
12:7,12,13, where the BLOOD on the door posts was the only means of safety.
Again it was not a literal Baptism as they went thru totally DRY. When they
went thru the walls of water it portrays a picture (LIKENESS) of New Testament
Baptism and Israel's submission to Moses rather than Pharaoh as in the
Christian's submission to Jesus rather than this world.
In 1 Peter 3 we have another figurative ("LIKE FIGURE") example this one being
Noah's Ark.
1 Peter 3 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God
waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that
is, eight souls were saved by water. The LIKE FIGURE whereunto even baptism
doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the
answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Now if we leave the parenthetical part of the sentence out it clearly shows
what saves us:
"The LIKE FIGURE whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the
resurrection of Jesus Christ"
The parenthetical portion reinforces that baptism does not put away the filth
of the old carnal nature. It is simply "the answer of a good conscious toward
God."
John 3:5 Jesus said to Nicodemus: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a
man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of
God."
What would make one believe that the word water means baptism? Does water
always mean baptism in the scriptures?
Baptism of John was a baptism of repentance Luke 3:3
Water is used as a picture of the Word of God as in Ephesians 5:25
The word is essential to salvation 1 Peter 1:23 "being born again, not of
corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and
abideth for ever."
John 5:24, "Verily, verily, I say onto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
In addition the verse shows that there must be TWO births (Born again - second
birth) one physical "born of flesh" (vs 6) as when in the "Mothers Womb" the
"water" brakes and one spiritual birth "born of spirit" (vs 6).
in verse 12 we have the contrast again of "earthly things"(physical) and
"heavenly things"(spiritual)
Now don't miss this; NOTICE in verse 6 Jesus says �That which is born of the
flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit� Notably he does
not say, �That which is born of water and the Spirit.� nor "he that is born of
Baptism"
So he is talking of two Births here:
BORN of FLESH & BORN of SPIRIT!
If it is still not clear see verse 15 which tells us who is saved "whosoever
BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned."
Question who is the one that is damned? "he that BELIEVETH not" It all hinges
on Believing!
It is good to be baptised but not essential. Baptism is a PUBLIC profession of
a spiritual new birth. It does not save. It declares salvation.
EXAMPLES of those that were saved independent of baptism
Acts 10:43 Peter says to the non-Christian Cornelius and his household,
�whoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.� While Peter is
still preaching, the Holy Spirit is poured out on this group, without Baptism.
Luke 7:37-50 "Wherefore I say unto thee, Her SINS, which are many, are
FORGIVEN; for she loved much: but to whom little is FORGIVEN, the same loveth
little. And he said unto her, Thy SINS are FORGIVEN. And they that sat at meat
with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
And he said to the woman, Thy FAITH hath SAVED thee; go in peace."
Jesus plainly stated that the women was immediately forgiven and was now saved
by faith. She knelt at the feet of Jesus, trusted Him, and went away a saved
woman. She was saved without baptism.
Luke 18:35-43 healing/conversion of a blind man. VS 42 "And Jesus said unto
him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee."
The publican, Luke 18:13, 14 Standing there in the Temple, he prayed saying:
"God be merciful to me a sinner," Jesus says "I tell you, this man went down to
his house justified!"
The thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43 Was not baptised. One was saved that we
might have hope One was LOST that we might not presume.
The Book of Mormon is described as containing �the fullness of the everlasting
gospel� DC 27:5
Why does the Book of Mormon not contain such teaching, if Baptism is a central
teaching of the LDS Church?
Where then is the EVIDENCE that the people of the BoM knew of or practised
baptism, let alone PROXY Baptism?
The Book of Mormon teaches baptism is a covenant for mortal life. Mosiah 18:13
�And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he
said, Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from Almighty God, as a testimony
that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead, as to the
mortal body.�
Alma 34:34,35, teaches " Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful
crisis [death], that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye
cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the
time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess
your body in that eternal world. "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day
of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the
spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the
Lord hath withdrawn from you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this
is the final state of the wicked"
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Folks, just thought I'd send a little sample of what keeps my thoughts
sharpened re: the gospel--I belong to TruthTalk, an e-group dedicated (?) to
the truth. (: Instructions for joining this group are forthcoming in the next
e-mail--it would be fun to have a bunch of dedicated MORMONS on with Dave
Hansen and myself!!!
KEVIN is one of the street preachers who descend on Salt Lake City during the
Spring and Autumn conferences of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints. He does not believe baptism is necessary for salvation. He (and Izzy)
thinks Mormons are not Christians, even. (:
BLAINE: I wrote the below some time ago--have not as yet seen an answer--maybe
I missed something?
Hey
Kevin, why did Jesus insist on being baptized? Answer that question
directly without trying to get the issue sidetracked, OK? (HINT: to
fulfill ALL righteouness--duh)
Receiving an assurance of her salvation did not mean the woman in question (see
Kevin's comments below)did not need baptism, as baptism was obviously an
ordinance the Lord required of all of his disciples. He said so Himself!!!!
Much is not included in the Bible, so we don't have a record of this woman's
actual baptism, nor the baptisms of many other disciples. Yet reason tells us
that if baptism was needed by the Lord of Heaven "to fulfill all righeousness,"
it was needed by this woman and ALL others, as well. I assure you, Kevin, this
woman and all other disciples who were physically able to do so were baptized.
See some (but not all) references to the need for baptism below:
John 3:5: "Except a man be born of the water, . . . "
John 3:22: "After these things came Jesus and His disciples into the land of
Judea; and there He tarried with them AND BAPTIZED."
Mark 16:15-16: "And He (Jesus) said unto them, go ye into all the world, and
preach the gospel to every creature. HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE
SAVED; BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE DAMNED.
ETC., ETC., ETC.,
BLAINE says "I think the word was the result of a mistranslation"
Why is it that when a TT'er can't answer it is Always a problem with the
Bible???
WHOA hold on before you go all over looking for loopholes in Paradise!
WHAT OF THESE???????????????????????????????
EXAMPLES of those that were saved independent of baptism
Skip the 3 card monty stuff, answer please.
Luke 7:37-50 "Wherefore I say unto thee, Her SINS, which are many, are
FORGIVEN; for she loved much: but to whom little is FORGIVEN, the same loveth
little. And he said unto her, Thy SINS are FORGIVEN. And they that sat at meat
with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
And he said to the woman, Thy FAITH hath SAVED thee; go in peace."
JUST IN CASE U MISSED IT:
Jesus plainly stated that the women was immediately forgiven and was now SAVED
by faith. She knelt at the feet of Jesus, trusted Him, and went away a saved
woman. She was saved without baptism.
Luke 18:35-43 healing/conversion of a blind man. VS 42 "And Jesus said unto
him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath SAVED thee."
The publican, Luke 18:13, 14 Standing there in the Temple, he prayed saying:
"God be merciful to me a sinner," Jesus says "I tell you, this man went down to
his house JUSTIFIED!"
The thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43 Was not baptised. One was saved that we
might have hope One was LOST that we might not presume.
"ShieldsFamily" wrote:
BTW, Blaine, maybe you covered this already, but how did the guy on the
cross next to Jesus go to Paradise if he wasn't baptized? Izzy
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
BLAINE: Good point. I read something on that the other day--it has to do with
the word "paradise." I will have to find out where I was reading that, but I
think the word was the result of a mistranslation, and simply meant "the world
of spirits." I would not, however, pretend to judge the thief and contest that
he ended up in any place other than a good one, as I believe God is just and
takes many things into consideration. For example, what about little children
who die without baptism, as millions of third world children do? And do we
consign all Muslims to hell? Hardly. God is just, as well as merciful, and only
He can make judgements regards these cases that fall outside the Christian
view. As a Mormon Christian, I believe God has told us some things that apply
to us, but many of his judgements he reserves to Himself. Judge not (rashly),
that ye be not judged (rashly), in other words; or, "Judgement is mine," saith
the Lord.
--
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] baptism
Blaine, FYI you are not one who is in a position to determine who is/isn't a
Christian, since you aren't one. Therefore, I, being a Christian, can assure
you that Kevin is one. Izzy
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 7:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] baptism
BLAINE: As I have said many times before, Kevin has his own religion, which
is not Christian. He selects obscure passages that justify his vanity. Hey
Kevin, why did Jesus insist on being baptized? Answer that question
directly without trying to get the issue sidetracked, OK? (HINT: to
fulfill ALL righteouness)
Kevin: Faith - without works
BLAINE: Does this mean you don't like to work for a living, Kevin? (:
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: I concur, Kevin. Faith is certainly a key element of salvation, but
I do not think it is the only element necessary for salvation. How do you
see it, Kevin....do you believe faith is the only necessary element of
salvation?
DAVEH: Hey Kevin........Do you have a problem with me using 1Cor 15:29 in
support of other Biblical passages that become cumulative evidence that the
Primitive Christians believed a water baptism was necessary for salvation?
It does lead one to that logical conclusion, does it not?
Christians of all ages accept the clear teaching that salvation is by Faith
----------
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