|
Thanks for your reply to this, Judy. I read through
a few times and see considerable common ground. One place where I
think we disagree is: I would say that without bodies, we wouldn't be the kind
of creature we have to be to do the work given to us as image-bearers, and in
that sense they are part of being created in his image--not in the sense that
they are copies of God, because of course you are right, he is spirit. But they
aren't just arbitrary or "extra". And that's why we will be physically
resurrected, too.
I would probably also say that many of the things
we are called to do are "unrealistic". I don't think you mean we should
just give up on carrying out our job in the creation. By "creation", BTW, I
don't just mean the natural environment (trees, water, air) but include all
spheres of earthly activity. That is kind of a loose use, I guess! --but
one that is common in some circles.
Jumping off from there to a more general
question: sometimes I wonder how much we invest
in a certain cherished vocabulary, and whether we partly deceive ourselves in so
doing. I recently got an e-mail from a beloved old friend with whom I spent
several years in a certain Christian community. He said, among other things:
"I found when I got here that certain
ideas I had always assumed were quite clear in conversations at [XYZ]
were greeted by polite bafflement here. It was good exercise to decide
first of all if those pet ideas were worth reworking into normal English, and
secondly, how one would do such reworking. And how much of the original
idea would be left following such reworking. That was a bit of a shock and
quite helpful."
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Rikk
Watts on Genesis 1
Hi Judy,
I would like to seek out the common ground if
there is any. Without having to say that the statements below say everything
there is to be said on the subject, tell me if you can agree on any
of them:
1. God created the universe. It is his, and he
is present and active in it (although distinct from it and not limited or
contained by it).
My belief is that God created the
worlds by His Word; He spoke them into existence and they hold together
today by the Word of His power.
2. God made people, bodies and all, in
his image. Although sin has badly distorted our reflection of God,
it has not been able to obliterate it.
I don't believe that the "image
of God" is a body because to begin with God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and He
is eternal. Our bodies are mortal and temporal. Made in His image is to be
made in His nature and character which was lost when Adam fell.
We can have a relationship with God of a kind
that no other creature can, and we were made for this relationship. It
involves all our faculties, all our being. In Christ this relationship is
not only restored but becomes more than Adam and Eve ever had.
Yes; animals are not "spiritual"
they have bodies and souls. We are predestined to be conformed to the
image of Christ and this is the purpose for the New Birth/New
Creation. God is not interested in relating to a bunch of
rebels.
3. People were given stewardship of God's
creation and were made in such a way as to carry it out. Sin interferes with
this too, but in Christ we are restored to this function.
Adam was responsible for the
garden to dress it and keep it and yes, in Christ we are in the process of
restoration. However, IMO it is a bit unrealistic to expect to take over
socially and legally with EPA standards etc. and restore the creation to
it's former pristine condition when we are struggling with our own issues.
We need to cooperate in working out our own salvation with fear and
trembling and let God handle what He only is capable of
doing..
4. The full story of salvation includes
our resurrection and the renewal of creation. This means we will again
have bodies of some kind.
Yes, the creation will be
cleansed by fire, us included because the baptism of Jesus is actually
a baptism by fire; those of us who make it and are left standing through the
fires of judgment will receive a transformed body like the one Jesus has
presently...
Feel free to add or qualify.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 7:57
PM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk]
Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
No problem Debbie, I'll wait to see how things
look after a break when you are rested.
Is Lance working you too hard?
judyt
Hey, Judy,
I see, on rereading, that I allowed
irritation and impatience to strongly influence the content of
my two most recent posts to this thread. I've been pretty tired in
the last few days, actually; not that that's an excuse, but I
mention it as the reason why I will wait and rest a bit before making a
better attempt at responding to your messages later this weekend. Truly
sorry about that.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 5:31
PM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re:
[TruthTalk] Rikk Watts on Genesis 1
But I remember, now, that you have a very different idea of the
body, and it was talked about at some length on TT not
long ago. (Remember the discussion about
"gnosticism"?)
The above is not
"my idea of the body" Debbie and my idea has nothing whatsoever to do
with gnosticism. I don't remember gnosticism ever
being discussed at length on TT; it
was mentioned at times in passing by those who have no
frame of reference for what I write so they use a "gnostic
box" and it appears as though you are in this category
also. My belief is that the human body is "fearfully and
wonderfully made" - Nevertheless, 1 Corinthians 15:50 still stands. I
didn't write scripture I just believe it as is. What are you
going to do with this statement?
It is not your
idea? I am guessing you mean that it is God's. Are
all your ideas the same as God's? For your final question
above, please see last couple of posts.
We understand Scripture
differently on this
question. Perhaps we could just disagree instead
of doing it all over again. I don't feel compelled to try
to convince you, and I think the effort would be ill spent in
any case. Live in the light you have.
Thanks for your
permission or suggestion Debbie
actually, it was a
straightforward command :-) but go on...
- whatever.
Of what have you been trying to convince me?
Nothing. Did I say
I was? I thought I said the opposite!
We are obviously
at opposite ends of the spectrum with your faith
resting in the human understanding of speech
forms
No; I use them
carefully for talking and thinking, as they should be used,
but my faith doesn't rest in them. My faith rests in God, as I
presume yours does.
and mine in
the insight given by the Holy Spirit
Oh, your faith
rests in insight. OK.
who gives
understanding and who leads us into all truth (in every
language and in all generations).
Tell me, do you
expect to learn anything (=gain a new understanding that you
never had before) from (or by means of) anyone on TT? Ever? I
am not being snotty, I am quite serious about
that.
Time ill spent seems to go both ways as you
consistently ignore what I write with regard to the
subject line and inevitably turn the subject back
to ME...
Not much joy at all
in that.
Not sure what you mean by "turning
the subject back to you". Do you mean I keep returning the
ball to your court, like people do when they discuss? Or do
you mean you feel personally attacked? I don't mean to do
that. I have been trying honestly to talk about what
you have been talking about. The joy I invoked
for you was supposed to come from "living in the
light you have"; if I have been detracting in any
way from your joy, please forgive me. The way for me
to stop doing so is probably to be silent. Like Job,
I put my hand over my mouth.
Debbie
jt
Debbie writes:
1. We are not saved to be
something other than human. To be truly
human does not mean to be sinful and
broken.
What do you mean
by "truly human" Debbie? It's been my experience that
ppl usually bring out "after all they are human" as an
excuse
for continuing in
sin when they are threatened by someone they think may be
setting the standard too high.
You can't be
talking about the human body because we all know that "flesh
and blood" cannot inherit God's Kingdom (1 Cor
15:50)
So what are you
saying here... What is your spin?
judyt
|
