Re: [TruthTalk] Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS doctrine on TT

[Kevin Deegan]

God�s revelation of Himself is complete in Jesus

JN 14:8-9 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus is the image of God

2 Co 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Jesus is the express image of God

Hb 1:3 the express image of his person

What is the image of? "THE Invisible God"

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God

"is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15). The Greek word for "image" is eikon, referring to a representation of something, and denoting the manifestation of a substance. Notice that Paul contrasted Jesus' image to that of the invisible God. The point Paul was trying to get across was that Jesus is the visible representation of God to man. That is why Jesus could say, "he that has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9; also 12:45).

Jesus is the bodily representation

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

DAVEH: Golly, Perry....When asked a question, I try (time allowing) to
answer it. Are you surprised that I would give an answer that is
congruent with my LDS rooted beliefs? I've not heard of the SM method
of teaching....But, is the way I answer the questions a problem for you,
Perry. It seems that when I give a brief answer by merely quoting a
single passage as evidence in support of my belief, you criticize me for
prooftexting. When I quote several passages of support of my beliefs,
now you criticize me for teaching LDS doctrine. I'm perplexed, Perry.
Just how do you want me to respond to questions posed to me on TT?

BTW....Did you notice that I asked Kevin a number of questions as I
answered his questions, yet instead of directly answering them, he just
egged me on (if that is the proper way to frame it) with more questions
to draw out my own beliefs....for which you are finding fault. I
repeat....I did not come to TT to preach LDS theology, nor to convert
other TTers to Mormonism. My interest in being here is based on my
curiosity why Protestants (and in the case, most TTers) would think
about things like this. To me it is pretty obvious that God has the
form of a man, and that he can be seen by man. I derived my thinking on
this from my LDS background, and I feel the Bible sufficiently supports
my belief. Yet apparently some TTers like Kevin, Judy and presumably
you disagree...is that correct? Why? Is not the Bible plain in
revealing that men have seen God in the form of a man in Bible times?
Do you not see why I am so curious to learn why any Bible believing
Christian would not see it as I do? To me it is simply illogical to
think God is not in the form of a man. If you don't agree with me,
please tell me what you think God looks like Perry??? Do you really
think he does not exist in the form of a man?

Now Perry....If you think my thinking on this is strictly a Mormon
quirk, I suspect there are other TTers who would agree with what I said
above. At one time I remember DavidM suggesting the Bible teaches that
God has body parts. (Am I loosely quoting you right on that, DavidM?)
And logically....if God has body parts, what conclusions would that lead
to, Perry?

So Perry....what's the problem? If you feel that I am teaching
Mormonism, how bad can that be if the Bible teaches the same? And...I
stand by my original statement...I did not join TT to preach Mormonism
or convert TTers to Mormonism. I'm hear to find out what others
believe, and why they believe it. If you do not want to know what I
believe, don't ask me what I believe....and be sure to delete (without
reading) any of my responses to questions that are asked of me by others.

Charles Perry Locke wrote:

> Dave, you say you are not here to teach LDS doctrine, but that is
> exactly what you are doing. You may not be aware of the "Socratic
> Method" of teaching, but you are using it to teach LDS doctrine. Now,
> as far as I am concerned, it is your right to try to teach whatever
> you think is the truth using whatever method you feel compelled to use
> (within the gudelines) on TT. But at least be honest about it when you
> ar teaching LDS doctrine, rather than saying you do not do it, then
> doing it anyway.
>
> Perry
>
>> From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Dispersions
>> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:17:32 -0700
>>
>> Judy Taylor wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 May 2005 00:09:26 -0700 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> > writes:
>>>
>>> DAVEH: Sure....God does look like a man, Kevin. If Jesus was
>>> the Son of man (Jn 3:13), then do you not think his Father in
>>> Heaven was a Holy Man? No; God is a Spirit (John 4:24)
>>> - Jesus took our likeness upon
>>> Himself for a purpose. Psalm 91:4 speaks of God's feathers and
>>> wings, do you suppose he looks like a bird/ a chicken
>>>
>> DAVEH: Do you believe you have a spirit as well, Judy? Does having
>> a spirit change the way one looks? If you do not believe God looks
>> like a man, then what do you think he looks like??? Do you believe
>> Jesus is in the express image of his Father in Heaven? (Heb 1:3)
>>
>>> And, if Jesus' physical body was in the form of a man, do
>>> you not
>>> think his pre-mortal spiritual body may have been in a similar
>>> form? No; before he took a body upon Himself he was
>>> God the Word who
>>> appeared in His preincarnate state as
>>> an angel, a cloud, fire, water from the rock. You can't figure out
>>> God with a carnal mind Dave.
>>>
>> DAVEH: Do you believe it is important to understand the nature of
>> God, Judy?
>>
>>> To answer your last question....yes, many things are
>>> created in a
>>> form before they become the actual entity. If we were created
>>> in the image of God (Gen 1:26), and we will be like him when he
>>> appears (1Jn 3:2), then does it not follow that God looks like a
>>> man?
>>> No; the "image of God" speaks of nature and character.
>>>
>> DAVEH: Really?!?!?! So you would believe (don't let me put words
>> in your mouth) that we could have been born with 4 legs and a tail
>> and still been in the image of God?
>>
>>> You are trying to mix the spiritual with the temporal.
>>> The temporal is passing away - only the spiritual is
>>> eternal. Transformed bodies are part of it but this does
>>> not mean that Good looks like a man. He did not leave us any
>>> representation of Jesus, noone knows what
>>> he looks like other than he wasn't all that good looking.
>>>
>> DAVEH: You are losing me on that one, Judy. Do you not believe
>> Jesus currently has a resurrected physical body that resembles that
>> of a man?
>>
>>> God knows our frame, we are such idolaters that
>>> we would do the same with him as Israel did with the bronze
>>> serpent.
>>>
>>> As for him being seen.....is there any question about
>>> it? The passages that suggest one cannot see God are obviously
>>> referring to those who are carnal, since there are Biblical
>>> characters (such as Moses & Stephen) who did see God.
>>> Furthermore, Gen 32:30 pretty much illustrates that holy men can
>>> see God, and live. Was it not Jesus who said.......
>>> Moses didn't see God, he only saw his hind parts as he
>>> passed by
>>> and even that caused his face to shine so
>>> that he had to wear a veil before the ppl. Stephen had a vision
>>> of Jesus standing at the RH of the Father but there is no
>>> indication that he saw the face of God.
>>>
>> DAVEH: What difference does it make that Moses did not see God's
>> face. That wasn't the question.....Did Moses see God, and you
>> stipulated that he did......saw his hind parts . So what's to
>> debate.....Moses saw God and lived. God has a body (you've
>> stipulated Moses saw part of that body) which can be seen. Case
>> closed, is it not?
>>
>>> He said that because the man he wrestled with represented
>>> God. Do you really think that God Himself left his throne in
>>> heaven and
>>> came down to earth to wrestle with
>>> Jacob? It was an angel.
>>>
>> DAVEH: Do you believe the hindparts Moses saw were God's hindparts,
>> or do you believe they were hindparts of an angel?
>>
>>> Probably another manifestation of Jesus in His preincarnate state.
>>>
>>> *Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.* (Mt 5:8)
>>>
>>> ...........Do you believe you can see God, Kevin? If not, perhaps
>>> you are not pure enough in heart.
>>> Takes more than presumptuous belief DaveH - It takes a pure
>>> heart
>>> (that is what God calls pure)
>>>
>> DAVEH: You are losing me on this, Judy. So you *do *believe those
>> with a pure heart the shall see God? If so, then why would you take
>> issue with my assertion that God has a body that can be seen?
>>
>>> Kevin Deegan wrote:
>>>
>>>> So what would he look like? a man?
>>>> *Can he be seen?*
>>>> How can you be in the form of a man before you become a man?
>>>>
>>>> */Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>>>
>>>> DAVEH: No Kevin, I am not joking. I believe the Bible
>>>> teaches that Jesus was the God of the OT before his birth (Jn
>>>> 1:1-14)....I assume you agree. >From Jn 4:24, you do believe
>>>> God of the OT was a spirit....is that correct, Kevin? Yet
>>>> that spirit had the form of a body similar to ours, as is
>>>> evidenced by Gen 1:26-27 which explains that we were created
>>>> in his image. Furthermore, Paul suggests Jesus is the
>>>> express image of his Father. (Heb 1:3)
>>>>
>>>> Moses even describes some of God's body parts in Ex
>>>> 33:20-23, and whose similitude he beheld as mentioned in Num
>>>> 12:18. Do you accept the literalness of these descriptions,
>>>> Kevin? If so, does what I said above make sense now?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kevin Deegan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How could he be God in the "form of a man" before he became
>>>>> a man?
>>>>> Your joking with me, that make NO sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> */Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> DAVEH: God, in the form of a man consisting of a spirit
>>>>> being. Are we in agreement on that, Kevin?
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevin Deegan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What was he before he "became a man"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Hos 11:9 I am God, and _not man_; the Holy One in
>>>>>> the midst of thee*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DAVEH: I agree, Kevin. Jesus was not a man before
>>>>>> he was born. But, I believe he was literally the
>>>>>> Son of Man. When did that happen?.....after his
>>>>>> birth. Not only was he the Son of Man, but he
>>>>>> himself _became a man_, and was subsequently
>>>>>> resurrected after his death when his spirit body
>>>>>> was united with a physical body of flesh and bones
>>>>>> to become an exalted man. With what part of this
>>>>>> do you disagree, Kevin?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevin Deegan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I incorrectly told you items about my wife
>>>>>>> Hair color, likes dislikes, how we met, where we
>>>>>>> married, where she was born (it was not
>>>>>>> Jerusalem : )
>>>>>>> She would not be pleased. Her desire is that I
>>>>>>> know her.
>>>>>>> God wants you to know him, He
>>>>>>> is a jealous God
>>>>>>> He wants your love and affection.
>>>>>>> If your description of Him is off, you are
>>>>>>> worshipping a god of your own making
>>>>>>> *Hos 11:9 I am God, and _not
>>>>>>> man_; the Holy One in
>>>>>>> the midst of thee*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.


----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com