Again, this Mormon doctrine echoes Jewish thought. The Midrash Rabbah comments on Genesis 1:26 by not only asserting that the "us" is a council, but by going so far as to discribe the conversation that proceeded the creation of man:
"When the Holy One, Blessed be He, was about to create Adam, the Attribute of Kindness said: �Let him be created,� but the Attribute of Truth said, 'Let him not be created.' God took Truth and cast it to the ground. Said the ministering angels before the Holy One, �Why do you scorn Truth?� While the ministering angels were debating the issue, The Holy One created Adam" -- Genesis Rabbah 8:5 Interpreters use Daniel 8:12 to support the account of God casting truth to the ground. Apparently, God's own vote could not tip the balance, nor could He overrule the both of them if He had wanted. It seems He had to get rid of the one voting a "No." But the Midrash offers a caveat to this: "Rabbi Samuel bar Nahman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah; writing a portion of it daily, when he came to this Verse which says, "And Elohim said let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, Master of the Universe why do you give herewith an excuse to the sectarians [those who would use this verse as evidence of polytheism]. God answered Moses, You write and whoever wants to err let him err." Blessings! --- Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To name just one, Bart Ehrman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Deegan > To: [email protected] > Sent: May 25, 2005 13:19 > Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon > angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching > LDS... > > > Who? > > Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Genesis and Job comments are supported by > some commentators. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave Hansen > To: [email protected] > Sent: May 25, 2005 10:29 > Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] mormon angels. > was: Dave uses Socratic Method of Teaching LDS... > > > DAVEH: No Judy....I am not kidding, though I > may have chosen better words (counsel) to describe > it. > > When God spoke as recorded in Genesis > (1:26), he seemed to be discussing the creation with > others...... > > And God said, Let us make man in our image, > after our likeness:..... > > .......I believe this was directly (and pretty > much literally) a reference as to what was said at > that planning session, or counsel. Job also > referred to such a meeting (1:6)....... > > Now there was a day when the sons of God came > to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan > came also among them. > > .......which also addresses Kevin's comment > carrying negative connotations......... > > And Satan was a committee member! > > .........Yes, I believe Satan was also present > at that counsel. His unruly behavior led to a war > in heaven, and his subsequent expulsion. Regarding > your comment to Blaine, Judy....... > > Blaine scripture teaches nothing about any > pre-existence so it is all a figment of someone's > imagination. > > .......I would respectfully disagree, as I > believe there is plenty of evidence recorded in the > Bible of the pre-existence. > > Judy Taylor wrote: > Planning sessions? Tell me you are kidding > DaveH ... Like God is a committee and needs input? > Also my Bible says that the Holy Spirit is the > executor of the will of the Father and the Word who > became the Son. jt > > On Wed, 25 May 2005 00:06:20 -0700 Dave > Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > DAVEH: FWIW.....I agree with what you > explained below, Blaine. But I've always thought > LDS theology allows that Adam was a God in the > pre-mortal existence, inasmuch as he was one of the > key players (as you indicated below) who sat in on > the planning sessions (so to speak) of the plan of > salvation, and then was a/the pivotal character in > implementing the gospel. Is that how you understand > Adam's role/status, Blaine? > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Blaine: I guess I just can't resist > breaking into an interesting conversation!! Perry > you are wrong when you say Mormons believe Adam was > both God-the-Father and Michael in the > pre-existance. It is clear and consistent in all > Mormon doctrinal treatesies on this subject that 1) > The man Adam was Michael the archangel in the > pre-existence, 2) that Michael was third in order > of authority in the pre-existence. Both the Father > and the Son were above Michael in authority. > Michael was the executive of the will of the Father > and the Son, you might say. > > In a message dated 5/24/2005 8:01:49 AM > Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Dave, > > If I am "somewhat close", can you > tell me the part I am wrong about? You > always say if I want to know what > mormons believe, ask a mormon... > > Perry > > >From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [email protected] > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] mormon > angels. was: Dave uses Socratic Method of > >Teaching LDS doctrine on TT > >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:38:17 -0700 > > > > > > > >Charles Perry Locke wrote: > > > >>Dave, > >> > >> Christians consider angels and > humans to be two distinct types of > >>created beings. > > > >DAVEH: Yes, I understand that. Yet, > it seems Paul is telling us that it > >is difficult (if not impossible) to > tell us (mortals) apart from angels. > > > >>Correct me if I am wrong, but don't > mormons consider angels to be either > >>pre-mortal or post-mortal humans? > For example, don't mormons consider > >>Michael (the archangel) also to have > been a human at one point...was it > >>Adam? Hasn't he also been considered > to be the mormon god the father? So, > >>basically, one being can be spirit, > angel, human, or god at various times. > >>Am I right on this? > > > >DAVEH: You are somewhat close. > > > >> > >>Perry > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Dave Hansen > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.langlitz.com > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > If you wish to receive > things I find interesting, > I maintain six email lists... > JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, > STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and > CLIPS.__________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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