Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

[Judy Taylor]



 

 

On Sun, 29 May 2005 18:44:16 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Where in scripture do I find this requirement – that I must fulfill the Law as Christ did.   Your doctrine of works is a failure’s doctrine  -  offering no hope and placing one back under bondage. 

jt:  I don't have any "works" doctrine per se JD but what does Jesus mean in Rev 22:12 when he says "Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be".  Paul knew about this and was practicing it in his own life when he wrote (I believe it is in 2 Cor) that he is not under the law to God but under the law to Christ which would be what James calls the royal law or the law of love. Since this is much more stringent than the Mosaic Law I can't see how you figure that in some sense we are off the hook.

 

No scripture, Judy.  You are giving me none.   Stringent?  The perfect law of liberty. The one Peter received, in part, because of the burden of the Old Law?  The only reason why you see it this way is because you have no real place for grace in the unmerited sense;  you do not believe that Christ did much of anything ON OUR BEHALF while I believe that we were made to be righteous by His efforts, not ours. 

 

jt: I don't believe that He did so much that nothing is expected from us JD which is what I perceive you to be saying.

Nor do I believe that there is anything we can do in our own strength to make ourselves righteous.  However, we will

not escape if we neglect so great a salvation and the things that have been written for our instruction are all about a ppl

who missed it and died in the wilderness.  This is what I am trying to get across to no avail.  BTW what is this law of

liberty that Peter receive "in part"???

 

How is faith in stark contrast to law since it is not possible for someone who is lawless to be walking in faith and the only reason Old Covenant ppl could not keep God's Law was because of the weakness of the flesh for which we have now been given "dunamis" or power from heaven so that we are now able to fulfill God's Law in or through Christ.

 

Seems as though you have some study to be done.   I just quoted scripture -- Romans 3:27.

 

So? This one verse does not negate the rest of the Bible JD.  Faith must have some corresponding action or else it is

dead and dead faith is not the saving kind.

 

It all goes to purpose, Judy.   The only reason Old Covenant ppl could not keep God’s Law was because righteousness was never the ultimate purpose of the law for “if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law” (Gal 3:21b)  ….  The Law has become our tutor  .. to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith …. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor  (Gal 3:24-25). 

 

Shall we sin then that grace may abound???????????

 

I don't know what to say.  You will just reject that response, I am afraid.  I mean, ALL of the immediate above is scripture.   We are to live lives that demonstrate the reconciliation to which we have been redeemed -- no doubt.   To sin that grace might abound would be a demonstration, in and of itself, of the rebellion and selfishness of the participant.   We are not discussing unmerited grace, so much as we are discussing the Law and the place of law in God's plan.  The fact of the matter is this:  when Paul wrote to the Spirit-filled believers in Galatia, he did not instruct them with anything that is similar to your presentation.   Why is that?  

 

jt: Yes and it is scripture presented with a certain slant toward the doctrines of men; I have a house full of guests and it is

almost time for supper so I can not take time to look up anything right now.  However, if you take all of the Bible in balance and in context you will find no conflict with God's Commandments, Laws, and Statutes and it would behoove

all of us to have the heart of the Psalmist for them.  Especially since the wisdom of God says that when one turns his

ear away from God's Law that even his prayer is abomination.  The Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul.

Read Psalm 19:1-10 and tell me we no longer need God's Law....

 

God could have empowered the ppl at any time to live in accordance with the Law.  Christ did not need to die if that were the issue.  The fact of the matter is this – the law was never for the purpose of justification.  “…if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died in vain”  (Gal 2:21).

 

jt: This is what I have been saying JD .. ie that the law was never for the purpose of justification ... I don't believe God would have violated his own holiness and/or his own Word to bypass His standard and empower spiritually dead ppl against their will to do what was alien to their nature.  Even though they did it imperfectly, in attempting to keep His Law, they were following Him in His way by their own volition.

 

Why are these people spiritually dead?  First, they cannot be deemed perfect by the law  --  but assuming they could, why would you consider them dead?   

 

jt: Because God told Adam that in the day that he ate HE WOULD SURELY DIE; he ate and I believe God is a Father of His Word.  Adam didn't die physically that day - his communion with God was broken and he died spiritually.

  

That which was presented in Jere 31:31-34 as a promise had its beginnings in the time of Abraham and before the Law. The law, then, was only a tutor, leading us to the time when we would be justified through faith, leading us to Christ.   As a tutor, the Law was temporary.  

 

jt: God's Word is eternal JD; the Levitical system is what was temporary. You have only man’s opinion of this, Judy. 

jt: No scripture speaks of the eternal nature of God's Word.

 

Bless you, Judy.   A marvelous slip of the punch.   I was not speaking of the eternal nature of the Word.   You .................... go back up a notch in this post reread my comment.  I was talking about the Levtical system and your claims about that in relation to the outing of the Law.  I repeat  ---------------  you have only the opinions of men, no scripture on this one. 

 

jt: You have not been differentiating between the moral vs Levitical Law JD - you keep saying "LAW" as though it were generic.  When I get time I will find the scriptures that show the Law is active at the end from 1 John and the gospels. The ones Jesus rejects He calls lawless.  How can someone be lawless when there is no law??

 

We are not children of the law (the bondswoman) ; rather and in contrast, we are children of the free woman. 

 

jt: The allegory above (bondswoman) represents the works of the flesh and has nothing to do with God's Law which is spiritual.  Tell it to someone who has not read these words, “………….Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia  …….”  (Gal. 4:25).  

 

jt: Paul uses the two women as an allegory  Are you thinking that I believe that Hagar is really Sinia?  Hagar, in his allegory, is the Law of Moses, the Ten Commandments and all that came with that package.  

 

jt You are wresting scripture JD. Hagar is the works of the flesh; Paul juxtaposes the flesh with the spirit here and when he

speaks of Isaac as the child of promise and Ishmael as the child of the flesh.  Law has nothing to do with any of it other than that you can try to keep it in unbelief.