Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

[knpraise]

 

 

 

John’s response in bold type

 

 

JD: A redundant question on Paul’s part; the correct answer to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the works (obedience) of the Law.  I think "He" is God, but I will give you Paul for the sake of argument  --  How did Paul provide you with the Spirit and the working of miracles  --  through the works of the Law or by the hearing with
faith.  My point is the same.

 

jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the miracles but he works through men.

It does not make any differece as relates to my point.  The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were because of faith, not law.   Can you understand how I might believe this, in view of the fact that I am quoting scripture? 

 

 

JD: They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw only danger in their return to the law.    These folk are converted Gentiles.   They are not Jews.  Yet, there are those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to the Law.

 

jt: How can you be sure they were all Gentiles; They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2)  all we know is that they lived in Galatia. The Judaizers were pretty busy, in fact they stirred up trouble everywhere Paul went giving him a reputation.  They taught that it was Jesus plus these ppl had reverted back to Judaism and Galatians 3:3 explains his meaning "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is between flesh and spirit, rather than God's Law and Christ.  By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were Gentiles, but it was probably a Gentile congregation, for the most part.

 

JD: The "flesh" in this passage is the Law.  Context Judy, context. They had the power  --   and Paul is saying, do not choose law over Spirit.  

 

jt: No, he is exhorting them to get out of the flesh and back into walking after the Spirit, this says nothing about the Law. Judy, please read 4:24-29.  This is what it says to me:   you have Hagar (Mount Sinai – the Law) AND HER CHILDREN (24-25).  Jerusalem is the free woman, and Isaac is a fellow child of the promise  ---   not Hagar and her children.  Pay special attention to verses 28 and 29   “��And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.  But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh (Hagar’s children – of the Law) and persecuted himn who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now, also.  

 

Look again to 5:16,17:   For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh: for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things you please (compare Romans 7:14ff).  But, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.  

 

Or, try 6:12-13:  Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.  For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may boast in your flesh.” 

 

JD: Nothing? !!  The whole book is about the Law and foolishness of seeking to live under its bondage  --  something spirit-filled Galatians are encouraged to reject.  The whole book, Judy.

 

jt: I don't agree JD; at the end of the book of Galatians in Chapter 5 Paul contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit. He says nothing at all about God's Law, nothing!!!!  Sure it does:  For the fruit of the Spirit is love joy ……against such things there is no law

 

JD: Your gospel would tell these folks, “Use the power of the indweeling that you have received, to fulfill the Law.   Do not reject what God has given !!  Embrace it and live it out in the power of the Holy Ghost.”  None of that is found in the letter  -  yet this is your message.   Snip snip, Judy.  

 

jt: No JD, my gospel would not tell these ppl anything of the sort; lawless ppl are not living by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are off on their own, doing their own thing.  The Galatians were not lawless.  They were filled by the Spirit, workers of miracles, children of God on the verge of binding themselves to the Old Law.  

JD: The really bad news in all this is found in this fact:  to be justified by Law is to be fallen from grace.

jt: Just walking in the flesh while trying to be good "religious" folk is t he same thing because there is no faith in that either.

The Levitical system is finished and gone ... but trusing in the works of the flesh is one and the same. Opinions of man mixed with a Bible. I need b, c and v for t his Levitical Law thing……..especially in view of the fact that Paul contrasts Issac and Mount Sinai.

 

JD: Keep the law, if you will DM  --   as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.  The Bishop

jt: Impossible to be lawless and ATST serve the Lord JD. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Also if you

are trusting in the "incarnation" or "perichoresis" you are not any better off ...

JD: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life.  To think otherwise is heretical at best, and heretical in the lest. 

 

jt: According to who?  I don't see Paul preaching or teaching that doctrine anywhere in Acts or the Epistles.

 

 Are you  denying this statement:   The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life, ? 

 

JDS