I really need you present a scriptural argument for this.
My ""conviction" is not to be confused with the Spirits feelings.
When we speak corrupt communication, that is, "mis-speaking" in your
words, the Spirit is grieved: Eph. 4:29Let no corrupt communication
proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of
edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30And grieve
not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of
redemption.
And as far as your sinning by not helping your neighbor, Hebrews 10
addreses the subject: Heb. 10:26"For if we sin wilfully after that we
have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more
sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment
and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."
In fact, I would just like to ask, JD, how you respond to all of
Hebrews 10:
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very
image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they
offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that
the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of
sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins
every year.
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats
should take away sins.
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and
offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no
pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written
of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings
and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure
therein; which are offered by the law;
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away
the first, that he may establish the second.
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the
body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering
oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for
ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are
sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that
he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,
saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their
minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for
sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest
by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us,
through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies
washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering;
(for he is faithful that promised;)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good
works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner
of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye
see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge
of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or
three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought
worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted
the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy
thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I
will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his
people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye
were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches
and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the
spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great
recompence of reward.
36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will
of God, ye might receive the promise.
37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and
will not tarry.
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my
soul shall have no pleasure in him..
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them
that believe to the saving of the soul.
Don't be shocked at me, I didn't write it. I only choose to accept
it as the word of God. If this seems contrary to my understanding of
the world, I just change my understanding of the world and bring it
into alignment with the word of God, shouldn't I?
Blessings!
-----Original Message-----
From: Christine Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:21:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] We Sinners
JD, I hadn't yet answered your post on cleansing, but it doesn't mean I wasn't going to. I just wanted to add some thoughts on a previous post you had made. Now on to answering your query: JD wrote: > You believe the Spirit is grieved on each occasion > that His well meaning partners mis-speak? Yes. Death and life is in the power of the tongue, and speaking is a serious matter to the Lord. Out of the abundance of the heart, JD. Haven't you ever felt the Spirit greived when you mis-spoke? Haven't you ever been convicted about something you just said?I really need you present a scriptural argument for this. My ""conviction" is not to beconfused with the Spirits feelings. The Lord knows that my sins do not mean that i am headed inwrong direction. You God is pretty mush an emotional mess most of the time -- grieving formhundreds of thousands, millions, perhaps billions of people who are dispapointing to Him. Idon't see it. JD wrote: > When you write "cleansed," I > uderstand you to be saying that you are pressing the > view that we have been pardoned for past sins and > empowered to live without transgression of any > kind." Absolutely. Christ died once. We cannot crucify Him again for our sins, so that means a single, thorough washing. If we were not clean and pure and holy children, He would have to sacrifice Himself again. You see, I must beleive this. I still don't fully understand exactly how this works, but I must accept it. The fact is, we cannot crucify the Son of God afresh.this is probably one of the most incredible statements from a Christian that I have seen inprint. Help me out, here. You cannot posilby argue that you have committed no sin sinceaccepting Jesus into your life. Why is that not in conflict with what you say above? JD wrote: > It [damnation] is not > a decision that God makes after comparing the good > that we would do with the bad that most surely is a > part of the lives of us all. See, this is where we disagree. When you say "bad" I say immature. It's kind of like this: It is holy to love Jesus and feel if that your co-workers don't know Him, they will perish. But it is more holy to witness Jesus to them. If you are new to the faith, you're not sinning by only wishing they knew Jesus. But isn't it more righteous to preach Him? We mature in this holiness.Is a "babe in Chrsit" immature but saved?When we are convicted, and we move to higher practices of righteousness, we should not call the level we just left "sin." We are maturing. However, if we return to that former level, it would be wrong, because now we KNOW better. James 4:17 says that knowledge is responsibility: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. If God tells us we are holy, and that we are no longer servants, but children, but then leaves us in our filth, it would all be sick charade. But I beleive God does not mock us. He equips those he calls.
You use language that is prejudicial as a part of your argument. Look to Eph 4:20 . Ibelieve you will note that the "old man" is alive but decreasing while the new man is on theincrease. JD wrote: > I would appreciate your response on this rather than > your father's. JD, all this about not calling ourselves sinners is a personal revelation the Lord has shown me. I don't know whether to be impressed you would think I have been consulting my father on this, or insulted that you do not mean nice things about my father by saying that. :-)The Lord has spoken to me as well, Christine. Regading my comment -- no insult intended.You have begun other conversations with me and left the discussion behind while, at the same time,your father has decided to involve himself in our discussion(s). That is what you have done in the past -and that is my frame of reference.JdBlessings! --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Christine -- could you take a second look at my > post and give it a more precise answer? Have I > captured your thinking on "cleansing." ? Is > "salvation" God makes based upon an accounting of > our actions as presented in my post? > > JD > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:58:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] We Sinners > > > Hello. > > You believe the Spirit is grieved on ech occasion > that His well meaning partners mis-speak? > Not arguing -- but it seems an appropriate > question. > > Regarding my use of the word "sinner." You are > correct ot make note of the biblical use of the > word. > Those who follow Christ are not called "sinners." > But I do not use the word in that light. Where we > are at odds, Chritine, is found in the wording of > your sentence below: > > And if we are sinners, then there is no difference > between us and the unsaved. But truly, we have been > cleansed. Not just forgiven, but washed clean. > > Our theologies are very different when it comes to > the observation above..............in spite of the > fact that I could easily say "amen" to what you have > written. Our words do not have the same meaning, in > a pratical sense. When you write "cleansed," I > uderstand you to be saying that you are pressing the > view that we have been pardoned for past sins and > empowered to live without transgression of any > kind." > > I find that conclusion to be an impossible one. > "Cleansing" for me is something that God does > IMMEDICATELY and continually upon our desire to > serve Him ................................Actually, > that is not what I beleive so I will try it again. > > The "reconciliation of all things" (Col 1:17) may > have secured this consideration for all of mankind > -- apart from anyone's > "decision" to "serve." If that is the more > accurate statement, then "damnation" is the result > of an attempt on our part to live a life > autonomously --------- apart from God. It is not > a decision that God makes after comparing the good > that we would do with the bad that most surely is a > part of the lives of us all ................. 99 > good things compared to 97 bad things will get us > into heaven ........... or is it 99 good things > compared to 1 bad thing will find us lost? Maybe > yoou could clarify? > > I would appreciate your response on this rather than > your father's. > JD > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christine Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:31:50 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] We Sinners > > > JD wrote: > > We sinners > > JD, I have a conscience problem with calling myself > a > sinner. As a 'son' of God, I partake of the Father's > holiness. Now, my knowledge isn't perfect, I am > still > learning and maturing onto higher levels of > Holiness, > but it is simply untrue to call a child of God a > sinner. When the Israelites made a sacrifice year > after year, they remained sinners after they were > forgiven. But only one sacrifice has been made. So I > (and you, as a son of God) am no longer a sinner. It > is putting Christ to an open shame. > > And if we are sinners, then there is no difference > between us and the unsaved. But truly, we have been > cleansed. Not just forgiven, but washed clean. > > I don't wish to pick on your wording, but I beleive > many Christians greive the Spirit when they speak > that > way. > > > Blessings! > > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > That is exactly what I mean by "the truth." We > > sinners have so much going for us than creative > ways > > of doing things wrong. AT THE SAME TIME, we can > > be concerned with our physical health, with doing > a > > better job at work, with helping others with their > > needs and expanding on that ministry, with > > developing > > a deeper prayer life, growing in the ways we > > express ourselves to others, increasing our > > _expression_ of love, joy, peace, kindness and the > > like ---- and more. The list above can be as > > long as one has time to write. To imagine that > God > > zooms in on one consideration, as important as it > > may be, to the exclusion of the larger picture > (much > > larger) of who we are and what we are becoming is > > somewhat preposterous, to me. > > > > Jd > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:46:22 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apocrypha > > > > > > If what you mean by 'the truth' has to do with our > > relationship with God through Christ in the power > of > > the Spirit then, yes and, Amen. > > > > It is relational in nature and, ought to include > TT > > to some extent. John 17 ain't reflected herein. > Were > > the Mormons to be truthful (I just didn't wish for > > them to conclude:'see, I told you we weren't like > > THEM-(US)) the same diversity and discord is > > reflected therein also. > > > > It's a human thingy. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: June 09, 2005 08:39 > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apocrypha > > > > > > > > The "duh !!" response was the only thing I could > > think of at the time. Judy had once again put me > in > > the category of teaching the doctrine of men, for > > some reason, while entering into a discussion of > > what she did the other night at church. She > defends > > this rather unusual procession of thouhgt by > giving > > me a brief lesson on becoming comformed to the > image > > of Christ ......................... as if my > > primary concern is something other than this. > Hence > > "duh !!" > > > > I personally believe that we change because of our > > relationship with The Truth more than because of > > conceptual correctness. There is the opinion > here > > on Tt, it seems, that God cannot accomplish > growth > > in an individual if there exists any sin in > his/her > > life. If the goal of God is to create a people > who > > think correctly on all matters, then He has > failed > > if a single consideration is wrong. But if the > > goal is relational in nature and substance, God's > > success in our lives will be demonstrated in spite > > of our sins or errant thinking. Correct? > > > > Jd > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! 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