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I wouldn't assume anything Lance (dangerous practice) The "teaching forum"
is God's Word KJV which is the ONLY safe place today. As the
Church we are to be a "nation of kings and priests" and it is written that "It
is the glory of God to conceal a thing; but the honour of kings is to search out
a matter" We are to be workmen that need not to be ashamed who rightly divide
the word of truth. Note: rc tradition has no part in the "word of
truth" ... these are religious writings which stand or fall based upon whether
they measure up; most are not much better than the writings of Joseph
Smith. jt
Jt tells JD, along with the rest of us, that
'(she) I believe(s) the way (she does) I do because (she) I see(s) it in
the Word of God.'
Q:May one read OUT of the Word of God that which
is not IN the Word of God to begin with?
Q:May we assume that
attendance at some sort of teaching forum is, at least in part, for the
purpose of knowing aright in order that we might live aright?
It is not my 'thoughts' nor my 'individual musings' that matter in the
least JD. I believe the way I do
because I see it in the Word of God. But then this has never
seemed to make much difference to you
so I am not surprised that you don't get it. jt
Debbie writes: Does she (JudyT) have the same God? If she
thinks the beginning of Jesus was the beginning of the Son, then
no.
This is precisely what i hear Judy
saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.
But, alas, this was never my question.
God is sovereign. He exists apart from our thoughts about Him.
I just want someone to give me some insight on how to deal with what I perceive to be Judy's heresy. How important are our individual musings about God and Christ? There is not one person
on this forum who agrees in total with anyone else. At what point do these
disagreements rise to the level activity on our part. At what
point do we become exclusive in a thoughtful and order way?
JD
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 22, 2005 11:16
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
May I respond? First, two cautions:
a) The wideness of God's mercy is a different
question. God's mercy can be infinitely wide even though the gap between
sketches that still qualify as the same Jesus cannot be. The effect
of God's mercy is to reconcile people to himself (who may or may not have
a true idea of Jesus), not to make all Jesuses the same.
b) It's a bit confusing to me to use the name
Jesus (or Christ) in predicating the eternal Sonship. Having missed what went before, may I ask whether
this might also be confusing to Judy? You can't get rid of the
humanity of Jesus. Although Jesus the God-man has no end, and there is NOW
no Son apart from him, he did have a beginning. Therefore it's possible
for two people to believe the same things about Jesus while believing
different things about before Jesus was conceived.
As to those essentials whose absence results
in a different Jesus (since the conversation seems to aim at
establishing this): I'm not certain, but I believe divinity must be
one. If he is only Saviour without
being God, then (among other consequences) salvation is reduced to
fire insurance. The point of salvation is worship. Jesus is to
be worshipped. If he is denied worship, the point of the story is denied,
and it is a different story. Second, I
believe his real and Jewish humanity is essential, since it is as our rep,
and more specifically as the rep of Israel, that he has effected our
reconciliation. A third essential is that he really died, was
really raised, and really ascended--without that, the whole story falls
apart too. If Judy worships Jesus as God, and believes that he is
also a man, of the Jewish people, and that he died, rose, and
ascended to effect our salvation, then I believe she has the same
Jesus. Does she have the same God? If she thinks the beginning of Jesus
was the beginning of the Son, then no.
You could follow each of these out to other
things--for example, could Jesus be the chosen rep of Israel, the Christ,
if he was from the tribe of Benjamin and not Judah? Well, I know my answer would be No, but I recognize
that this is one level removed.
Do you agree? I could, as always, be all
wet.
D
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 6:10
AM
Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk]
Belief
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 22, 2005 06:09
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
As Rush often says to his callers (in a
very patronising manner which I
don't intend herein) 'you've swerved into something that is utterly
profound.' Speaking only for myself Judy, I believe that the answer to
your question is 'YES AND IT IS NO'. As to our Mormon participants, I
believe the answer is more likely to be an unequivocal 'YES'. How wide
is 'THE WIDENESS OF GOD'S MERCY?' IFF, from God's perspective, Judy Taylor and David Miller,
have misunderstood the matter of the 'eternal sonshiip' of the second Person of the Trinity and, IFF,
when it arises in conversation, they teach it.........well.....shall we
go on?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 22, 2005 05:53
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Belief
Lance, in view of our discussion yesterday -
would you say that you and I believe in a different
Jesus?
Still waiting ... judyt
Please Dave, read Perry's post of
yesterday then, answer my question. Would you say, in lieu of
Perry's 'list' that we (you and I) believe in a different Jesus?
IMO Perry is quite correct in
those distinctions he points out.
DAVEH: No, I do not recall
saying that. However, I believe we all are viewing the same
Jesus, but have different perspectives on what we see. The
Jesus I believe in the same one found in the Bible which is the
same one you believe as you read about him in the Bible.
That does not mean we both view him the same way. Does that
make sense, Lance?
Lance Muir wrote:
Have you said that their's is a
'different' Jesus?
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
June 21, 2005 00:55
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
DAVEH: Logically, the onus is not
upon me to define the Jesus I believe in, but rather it is on
the person who suggests I don't believe in Jesus. FTR....I have not said that the
Jesus Kevin, you Perry or any other TTer believes in is a false Jesus.
Lance Muir wrote:
DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in Jesus." IFF we are going to engage in
a conversation that entails reality, then we have to
continue to build upon that which has been said
previously.According to you THE JESUS TO BE BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND
ACCURATELY DESCRIBED WITHIN MORMON TEACHING. Is this so? The Jesus
believed in by Kevin, Perry, Lance et al is a false Jesus.
Is this not also so? (unwieldy but, you get my point)What,
IYO, are the eternal
consequenses for non-Mormons?
Mr. Moderator:Please grant
DaveH the opportunity of
fully answering and, explaining.
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
June 19, 2005 23:02
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
DAVEH: FTR Kevin, I believe in
Jesus. Therefore can we conclude that you've
made the judgment rather than God?
Kevin Deegan wrote:
He
will!
He Has!
JN 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he
that believeth not
is condemned already
DAVEH:
I fully understand that, Perry. But I'd feel more
comfortable
letting God make that judgment than
you.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>
David,
>
> Romans 10:9,10 : That if thou
shalt confess with
thy mouth the Lord
> Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God
hath raised him from
> the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with
the heart man believeth unto
> righteousness;
and with the mouth confession is made unto
salvation.
>
> But, as I have stated
before, the right jesus and right god must be
> at
the center of one's faith. I am not just harassing
you, Dave, I
> honestly do believe that the
mormons worship
false gods.
>
> Perry
>
>>
From: Dave Hansen
>>
Reply-To: [email protected]
>>
To: [email protected]
>>
Subject: [TruthTalk] Belief
>> Date: Sun, 19
Jun 2005 00:16:42 -0700
>>
>> DAVEH:
Yeah........Pretty quiet on TT tonight..
>>
>> Do
you believe that those who believe in Jesus are saved,
as I've
>> heard many Christians proclaim?
If belief is inadequate, what else
>> is
needed, Perry?
>>
>> Charles Perry
Locke wrote:
>>
>>> Dave, this is
great. Midnight, just me and you on TT, mano y mano,
>>>
so to speak :-)
>>>
>>> I
guess I am biased in that way, because both you and
Blaine admit
>>> to following the christ and jesus of mormonism, so it is my
opinion
>>> that you are lost since I
believe that they are false gods. If I
>>> thought that you guys were saved in
spite of the teachings of the
>>> mormon church I would
not be spending so much time exposing the
>>> false nature of the mormon church to
you.
>>>
>>> But, the bottom
line is that God makes that ultimate decision, not
I.
>>>
>>>
Perry
>>>
>>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
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--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
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