DAVEH: I've been debating with myself whether to violate my own self
imposed embargo on discussing LDS theology with you, Perry. Rather than
just let this go at this point, let me say that I believe anti-Mormons
want to promote the idea that Mormons believe Satan is equal to Jesus.
As I tried to explain in my brief explanation to Terry, that is not the
case at all. For a much better explanation of what I was trying to
convey, read the second topic (and the first topic is closely related,
as well) of Jeff Lindsay's treatise on the accusation.......
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Relationships.shtml
......Hopefully that will put the discussion in the proper perspective.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
So, David, you admit that you DO believe that Satan and Jesus are
brothers (although you did not say it directly, following your
somewhat circular argument, you implied it)? Why all the hoopla just
to confirm that? Why all the questioning whether Terry really believes
it, or if he believes it because that is what Kevin and I are trying
to make Terry think, or whatever you said.
Lets face it. Kevin and I said it. Terry understood it. You admitted
it. Why all the accusations? We present what we have learned about the
mormon faith, mostly from your own leaders, and believe it to be the
truth about what you believe. We are not intentionally trying to
mislead...we are intentionally trying to inform. So, if we say
something that is not true, tell us. Don't go mealy-mouth
couching-it-in-some-indirect-non-descript
maybe-it-is-and-maybe-it-isn't way to try to disguise it.
If Kevin and I do not present the truth of mormonism, the "meat" of
the faith, the disgusting aspects like the brotherhood of Satan and
jesus, that mormons do NOT want to reveal, then who will? You
certainly won't. Is there no help for the widow's son?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Goofy
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:48:41 -0700
Terry Clifton wrote:
The other day, in a response to Perry, I stated that what the
Mormons believe is goofy. Lance felt that was inappropriate and
though he did not say so, I assume that Dave H felt the same. This
note is not to apologise. Goofy was the best descrition that I
could think of at the time.
DAVEH: I've got no problem with your term goofy, Terry. Actually
it accurately describes what was described to you as my belief.
Unfortunately, it does not accurately portray my belief. That is
why it was explained as it was....to make it sound goofy. Has it
ever occurred to you that the folks who post goofy sounding stuff may
have an agenda and are trying to spin the message in order to
influence the reader to believe in a particular way? Have you ever
wondered why LDS folks like Blaine or me believe such goofy stuff as
you've seen posted?
Let me suggest that perhaps what you've seen posted is not quite
what we believe. And, let me suggest that though we may believe
things that seem goofy to you, we have explanations of why we believe
as we do that may not be as goofy as you might think. I think that
is one reason Mormonism appeals to some folks. They hear how goofy
it is, but when they sincerely look into it and find out what we
really believe and why we believe it....it doesn't seem so goofy
after all.
The thinking by some is that we are all in error to some degree, so
why single out the Mormons?
DAVEH: Because that is the nature of some in this group. Pick the
big targets and denigrate them to make them sound so goofy that
nobody will believe anything they say. If they can dispense with
the big targets, then perhaps they will then turn to smaller
targets. But as long as the Mormons hang around TT, I suspect you
are relatively safe, Terry.
For me,Kevin and Perry have posted any number of good reasons,
DAVEH: Does it occur to you that they may be trying to grind an ax,
and that when doing so their posts are sharpened to use to decapitate
their foes rather than discern truth?
but the thing that sticks in my craw is that the Mormons claim that
Jesus and Satan are brothers.
DAVEH: Are you sure that's what you heard the Mormons claim? Or
are you just thinking that's what Mormons have claimed simply because
you've heard it so often from anti-Mormons who want you to believe
such? I've explained the LDS perspective on this before, and I will
do so again since you have a problem with it. I hope that Perry will
be kind enough not to criticize me for teaching a little Mormonism at
this juncture.
I belief our Heavenly Father spiritually created us (you, me,
Jesus, Lucifer and all the angels of heaven) in a pre-mortal
spiritual state. Jesus is the firstborn of his Father in Heaven. He
was foreordained to be God and the creator of our physical
existence. Do you agree with that, Terry? Either way you believe,
let me just explain that is why I consider Jesus to be our Elder
Brother. The rest of us, including the angels of heaven, Lucifer and
those of us who have been born into mortality, were spiritually
created after Jesus. Lucifer endeavored to usurp Jesus' power, and
subsequent to the heavenly battle fought over that power, Lucifer and
his minions denounced the Lord and were ejected from heaven.
Roughly, that is the basis for why some non-LDS folks conclude that
Mormons believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus.
Terry, how would you feel if I said that you believe God is the
author of evil? Would you not be somewhat offended that I would
conclude such, and that I would tell others that's what you
believe? Well....why would I ever say such a thing. Let me give
you the logic similar to what Kevin has been using to convince you
that I believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. You believe God
created everything...correct? So...you believe God created Satan,
and therefore God created evil. Hence, I could conclude (in error)
that you believe God is the author of evil. Does my analogy make
sense to you, Terry?
This is a terrible sin. It is lying about God. Jesus Christ is
the creator of all things. Without Him, nothing was made that was
made. Satan is a created being, not a god, not a human, he is an
angel and the most evil angel ever created. To make him a brother
to Jesus is to elevate Satan to a god and to demote Jesus to the
status of angel.
DAVEH: Ohhhhh........I should have read further before giving my
previous example. Maybe you do believe Jesus is the author of
evil??? Correct me if I am wrong, Terry.
Now from my previous (above) explanation, I hope you realize that
I consider Jesus to be God from the time he was spiritually created
by his Father in Heaven. And yes, I realize that we will differ on
that aspect of Jesus, but that is a tangent to this discussion.
Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior, and Lucifer was not.
Lucifer was not God. He fought against God, and was ejected from
heaven for his denial of the Lord's power. I do not know why you
think we elevate Satan to the level of God. I can only assume you
have incorrectly concluded such because of what Kevin may have posted
in an effort to make you think that is what I believe.
If any person teaches this, they are a false teacher and are going
to spend eternity in Hell.
DAVEH: Are you referring to those who are trying to convince you
that I believe that which I don't?
Dave Hansen is nice to us and we should be nice to him.
DAVEH: I appreciate that, Terry. I don't expect you to agree with
my beliefs, but I would appreciate you asking me what I believe
before you presume that which somebody else says accurately portrays
my beliefs.
We must love him, but allowing him to think this lie is truth is
not loving.
DAVEH: That is exactly why I am trying to explain to you what I
believe....so that you will no longer believe the lies that are
perpetrated about what I believe.
I would offend him every hour of every day if it would bring him
to Christ.
Terry
DAVEH: I sincerely appreciate your concern for my eternal welfare,
Terry.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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