DH agrees with the official LDS position that she was a virgin prior to the birth of Jesus.
Was she a virgin after? And why?
Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>> Dave, it appears that you conveniently chose the similarities to focus
>>on.
>DAVEH: I chose 3.....two of which we agreed, and one that we did not. I
>did it as a simple example to demonstrate a principle. That I may or may
>not believe the things you say below to emphasize the differences in how we
>perceive the attributes of Jesus, it does not mean that we are not talking
>about the same Jesus of the Bible who died on a cross and was resurrected 3
>days later. To both of us....he is our Savior and Redeemer.
The biblical jesus is, but i really don't think the one you believe in is.
He shares a few characteristics witht eh Jesus of the Bible, but there are
more differences that identify your jesus as someone else, not the jesus I
know.
> Rather than get into long involved discussions about the validity of
>each of your below points, let me point out that you are not defining Jesus
>as you perceive him, but rather your are trying to define him by telling us
>what you think he isn't. How does that tell anybody what you believe to be
>the real Jesus, Perry? You seem more intent on dealing me out of the game
>rather than explain what you believe about Jesus.
I am not trying to define jesus with these statements...as you said above,
my puprose was "to emphasize the differences".
By agreeing on the Biblical characteristics you can make us (Chritians)
believe that we ARE worshipping the same jesus. But it ends wjere the BoM,
D&C begin. Talking about the differences is the ONLY useful tool for finding
out eho the mormons truly worship.
> How do you know God does not have a spirit wife(s)??? Does the Bible
>tell you he does not? How do you know Jesus' Father in Heaven does not
>have a body of flesh and bone? Does the Bible say such? Why do you think
>Jesus is not from Kolob? Does you Bible say such? If the Bible does not
>specifically say those things, then I assume you are offering opinions that
>may or may not be as valid as mine? Rather than speculate on what you
>think Jesus is not, why don't you tell us what you believe based on what
>the Bible says.
There is absolutely nothing in the bible that even implies that there were
many many mrs gods. It is, as you say, a "speculation" to the mormons.
Absence from the Bible does not make it so. If it did, then every heretic
that came along could (and they do) assign false attributes to Jesus.
> For instance, I believe Jesus' Heavenly Father is a man, and I offer as
>evidence that the Bible tells us Jesus is the Son of man. Now you may
>disagree with my understanding of that, but what Bible evidence would you
>offer to say that God is not a man?
God is a spirit, He is invisible, no man has seen Him "at any time", and He
"only hath immortality". (John 4:24, Col 1:15, 1 Tim 1:17, John 1:18, 1 Tim
6;16, 1 John 4:12).
Jesus is the son of man after his humanity, son of god after his deity.
Jesus' human body was borne by Mary, but the Word who became Jesus was not.
He always was, is, and forever will be the great I AM.
> As for Jesus not having genetic material, are you suggesting he did not?
> The Bible doesn't say either way, I was just offering my opinion based on
>my belief that I believe Jesus is the Son of God....the literal Son of God.
> If you don't believe such, that's OK Perry. In this instance, I may
>believe more in the literalness of Jesus' sonship than you. FTR....I don't
>recall any official doctrines of the LDS Church saying Jesus has genetic
>material of his Father. That is my speculation, and I qualified it with a
>so to speak comment. I don't think there is anything in the Bible to
>refute it....if so, I'm anxious to hear your argument.
Jesus certainly had genetic material when Mary carried him. Prior to that he
(the Word) did not.
Sonship, the wy you use it, implies creation or procreation. The Word was
in the beginning with God, and was God. He became flesh, and at that the
same time the "son of man" and the "son of God", speaking of his two natures
while on the earth.
> As for your question #9, LDS theology teaches that Mary was a virgin in
>the traditional sense of never being with a man, as you put it. While
>there may be a few (and I stress FEW) LDS folks who may have suggested
>otherwise, by far most (and I would put that at more than 99.99% of the
>membership) agrees with the official LDS position that she was a virgin
>prior to the birth of Jesus. If you do not understand my emphatic
>explanation of that, and continue to mention such things in an attempt to
>discredit my beliefs, you will be doing yourself the same disservice as
>Kevin who stubbornly holds on to a lie to his own detriment.
Dave, I guess I cannot trust the mormon missionaries to tell the truth. That
is who I got the information from. I would have thought that they would have
been taught the truth on that matter. Maybe Kevin has a little more info on
that.
> So Perry, is the Jesus I believe died on the cross to bring us
>salvation through his grace the same Jesus you believe was crucified to
>bring you salvation?
No.
>What is not in the Bible is speculation.
I agree. Namely the BoM, PoGP, and D&C, plus all of the wierd, strange, and
patently false speculations your leaders have made through the years.
>What counts is the Jesus who is revealed in the Bible to be our Messiah.
>Do you disagree?
I agree, but the jesus that the mormons invented is not the same one.
> Now Perry....we are back to the problem you presented when you accused
>me of being on TT to preach Mormonism. You (and others) continue to bring
>up LDS related stuff and push it in my face.
You are here because you choose to be. No one is pushing more in your face
than you want to receive, Dave
>As you know....there is no point in my discussing LDS stuff with you,
>considering your voiced intent is to denigrate anything to do with
>Mormonism.
My goal is not to debnigrate, although I am sure it feels that way to you at
times. My goal is to reveal the false and heretical nature or mormonism to
you and non-mormons that may be interested. You may have had free reign to
introduce your mormon philosophy prior to my and Kevin's arrivals on TT, but
my hope is that TT'rs may be more educated about mormism because of my small
and Kevins great efforts.
>However, do you want to discuss Jesus as he is presented in the Bible? If
>so, that might make a meaningful discussion. I will avoid bringing
>latter-day revelation into the discussion (except perhaps obliquely), and I
>would expect you not to bring post Biblical dogma like the Trinity Doctrine
>to the discussion. Then we could look at Jesus simply as seen through the
>eyes of the Bible. Does that appeal to you (or anybody else)?
Sure. However, due to time constraints I have, lets take one point at a time
and not introduce others until we finish the one. It may take us a while to
work through all the the Bible reveals about Jesus, and how we each
interpret that, but lets do it. Biblio y Biblio. Mano y Mano.
> I will change the subject line to reflect this new thread should
>anybody wish to pursue it. And BTW.....I really have no idea of how it
>will turn out. Without my LDS related extra-Biblical material, I may be up
>a creek without the proverbial paddle. For anybody willing to engage me,
>I will endeavor to be polite and not give a sucker punch when and if the
>opportunity avails itself. Likewise, I would expect those on the other
>side of the table to treat me as they would want to be treated. Fair
>enough? Any takers.......?
Yea.
> If so, I will state a few of the things I believe the Bible says about
>Jesus that I agree with......
>1. Jesus existed in the pre-mortal existence and was foreordained to be
>the Savior
We agree on this basic statement, but I have a feeling there is a lot more
about this you believe that is not biblical. Speculation, you called it? I
do not believe in a pre-mortal existence of men, but the Word is and has
always been God. You asked me not to use "trinity", so I won't. Just
understand that when I say "Godhead", I mean three persons, father, Son, and
holy Spirit, in one God. The Bible supports this concept of the Godhead, so
I will use it.
>2. Jesus was born of a virgin -
Other than the mis-information I got from the missionaries we seem to agree
on this, although we may differ on how Mary became with child.
>3. Jesus did not sin while in mortality
We agree on this
>4. Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later.
We agree on this.
>.......That seems like a simple start. Does anybody disagree? If so,
>present Biblical evidence and let's talk about it. If you agree with all
>the above, what additional attributes do you believe about Jesus and I will
>offer my opinion in return. In not too may posts, I suspect we will get
>into stuff where we don't agree, and then hopefully the discussion will
>provide some insightful thoughts. I just implore anybody who gets involved
>to keep the discussion on the table and avoid getting down into the mud.
>> Let me mention a few differences.
>>
>> 1. Is you jesus a procreated being from your god and one of his spirit
>>wives? Not Mine.
>>
>> 2. Is your jesus the brother of Satan? Not mine.
>>
>> 3. Is the father of your jesus flesh and bones? not mine.
>>
>> 4. Was the father of your jesus once a man? Not mine.
>>
>> 5. Did the father of your jesus have a father? Not mine.
>>
>> 6. Id the father of your jesus from Kolob? not mine.
>>
>> 7. Did the father of your jesus have multiple spirit wives? not mine.
>>
>> 8. Are your jesus, and his father, and the holy spirit 3 gods? Not
>>mine.
>>
>> 9. In the mormon paradigm, does virgin mean "young girl", or "never
>>been with a man"?
>>
>> 10. Where in the Bible does it say god's genetic material ended up in
>>mary? Where does it even say god HAS genetic material.
>> Dave, in my opinion (and evidently in the opinoin of many) they are
>>not the same. You have said it yourself...all false religions contain some
>>of the truth...mormonism is no exception.
Remember...no extra-biblical hooey.
Perry
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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