Re: [TruthTalk] Eternal Sonship

[Bill Taylor]

----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 7:49 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Eternal Sonship > Bill wrote: > > Paul states that the "beloved Son" is the creator > > of all things. You deny this > > I don't perceive Judy to be denying this.  She is simply saying that at the > time he created, the term "Logos" better applies to him than the term "son."   BT > Why do you suppose then that Paul did not use the term Logos here? Instead he states that it was by and through "him" (the referent being "the beloved Son") that all things were created? It seems that something which does not appear to be an issue with Paul is having a very big deal made of it by you. > > Bill wrote: > > ... your contention does not lie with me but the Apostle Paul. > > He is the one who contradicts you: "For by the beloved Son > > all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, > > visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers > > or authorities-- all things have been created through the beloved > > Son and for the beloved Son." -- Colossians 1.16 > > Don't you think you are adding to God's Word here?    BT  >  Not in the least.   DM  >  What translation translates Col. 1:16 this way.  I cannot find a single translation that matches up with you here.  Surely this is the Bill Taylor translation (or should I say interpretation), is it not?     BT  > You are correct, David, in that this is my translation; however, it is not at all uncommon in the process of translation to sometimes supply the antecedent in a statement where only a pronoun stands in the text (if you insist I will demonstrate this to you through the translation of your choice), and this is especially true in Greek, where on many occasion the nominative is implied by the predicate. One of the first things that a student is taught in classes on exegesis and interpretation is to identify the antecedents in a passage; this so that the reader may know who is being spoken of. Sometimes this is an easy and elementary task; other times it becomes a very difficult procedure. Of course any time an antecedent is identified, it is open to interpretation; this because its initial identification involved an interpretive task.    To me this passage seems fairly straightforward and self-explanatory. The only difficult placement, in my opinion, is the intensive autos (himself) of verse 20 -- the question being, does it refer to the Father or the Son: "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." I interpret this to be a referent to the Father, but, as I say, that is open to interpretation. > > Something that would help me communicate with you is to hear you identify a > few other terms and their applicability to the person Jesus Christ.   I will try to do this, David. My only concern is that on some of these the answer will raise a question of foreknowledge on the part of God. I don't really want to go into that too much here, simply because it involves a great deal of speculation and much more commitment than I have time to invest. I will also be treating "eternity" as if it is marked by time. I happen to think that there is time in eternity, i.e., points along the way; although Augustine would very emphatically disagree with me. > > 1.  Is the term "Jesus" something applicable to this person prior to his > being born of Mary?   At the point that sin entered the world, the Son was destined to be called Jesus. He identifies himself as the ego eimi, the 'I AM,' which is roughly (and in its context) a Greek equivalent to the Hebrew covenant-keeping name of God -- YHWH (Yahweh or Jehovah). The name Yeshua means Yah Saves (or something similar). In my opinion, this name is applicable to the Son from the moment, at least (I will get to this below), that sin entered the world. Before there was sin, there may not have been a need for "salvation" (see immediately below).   There is indication, however, that in eternity past God anticipated (here's the question of foreknowledge: Did he "anticipate" it or was it a fact by way of decree?) that sin would be an issue which would have to be addressed. Paul states in Ephesians that before the creation of the world the Father purposed to adopt sons and daughters "through Jesus Christ." David, this will probably involve one of those non sequiturs :>) but if he purpose to adopt us in "Jesus," then the very name of him through whom we would be adopted seems to imply at least a potential need for our salvation.   Hence, it seems to me that the name Jesus can be considered applicable to this Son, not only before his birth, and not only from the introduction of sin into creation, but even back into eternity to that point when the Father purposed to adopt sons and daughters through this One whose name means Yah Saves.  > > 2.  Is the term "Messiah" or "Christ" applicable to this person prior to his > being born of Mary?     The same answer applies here in many of the same ways as it does to the name Jesus. The Father purposed to adopt us through the Christ, and this he did before the foundation of the world. I believe therefore that the Christ was destined (in fact predestined) to come to us in incarnate form; this from that point in eternity.   Yes, I believe it is applicable. I also believe, however, as per acts 2.36 and Phil. 2.11, that because of sin and the need to purge it, the "Christ" had to die and rise anew before he could be fully equipped and qualified to function as such in that role. > > 3.  Is the term "son of David" applicable to this person prior to his being > born of Mary?   From the moment that the "Seed" passed through the loins of Jesse into David, the term is applicable, although this person did not become the "son of David" until his physical birth. > > 4.  Is the term "Savior" applicable to this person prior to his being born > of Mary?   This goes back to the question of Jesus. It is applicable in the same way that the name Yah Saves is applicable. > > 5.  Is the term "firstborn" in Col. 1:18 applicable to this person prior to > his being born of Mary?    Yes, but again because of sin and the necessity that it be defeated and his humanity "perfected," it is only fully realized after the resurrection.    Is it applicable prior to his being resurrected from the dead?   The term "firstborn" is a title of position and stature as much as it is a title of birth order. He was the firstborn from birth (and even prior to that, by way of promise), but he was qualified to function in that capacity through the resurrection.   By the way, the word for "firstborn" is prototokos, from which we get our word "prototype" -- just a little aside. > > 6.  Is the term "first begotten" in Rev. 1:5 applicable to this person prior > to his being born of Mary?  Is it applicable prior to his being resurrected > from the dead?   I believe so, in that he was destined to be Yeshua and the Christ from eternity past and, as is noted above, because of sin, the Christ finds fulfillment and qualification in resurrection.   By the way, this again is the word prototokos   > > 7.  Is the term "everlasting Father" applicable to this person prior to his > being born of Mary?   No, I don't think so (a lot of certainty there, huh?). Allow me to explain. It is in the incarnate person of Jesus Christ, that the Son of God can be called the everlasting Father, and this by way of union, because in Christ the entire Godhead is represented via the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, which is the unity which makes God "one." Hence, the "eternal Father" is known and represented in and through the person of Jesus Christ.    > > Concerning this last item, when did Jesus become the everlasting Father?  In > your opinion, was he the everlasting Father before the creation event of > Genesis?   No, I don't think so. I believe this a primitive (OT) reference to the Trinity in the NT, as God would then be revealed through the Son Jesus Christ, in that in the one person of Jesus Christ the entire Godhead is disclosed: the "Everlasting Father," the "Prince of Peace" (a reference to the Son), the "Wonderful Counselor" (which is the Holy Spirit), and then another reference to their unity in plurality in the Mighty God.    Bill > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > >