David Miller wrote:
DAVEH:
I think you are taking my example out of context,
DavidM. I was trying to point out that right or
wrong, I believe most knowledgeable LDS folks
tend to be a little more homogeneous in their beliefs
than do TTers.
So, I can find cults that are even more homogeneous than Mormons. Are you
sure you don't have any inkling that Mormons might be more right because of
this homogeneity?
DAVEH: While I may think
LDS theology is right, that is not the
point of what I was trying to convey. Right or wrong, within
homogeneous communities I believe there is a sense of direction that
TTers really don't have. I really
don't see a unity of faith in
TT.
(
FWIW....The only unity I see
here is in opposition to
Mormonism.....it
is the old
we don't necessarily agree on what is true, but we do
agree that Mormonism is false
line of thinking!) I hope I don't offend anybody with what I am next
going to say, but as I see it the (presumed theological) intellect of
TTers is the main obstacle to their
conformity. I believe that most intelligent people in Jesus' day were
less rec
eptive to his unifying message than those who had less knowledge than
they had faith. That's not to say that smart folks won't end up in
heaven, but perhaps it will be as difficult for them as it is for rich
folks to find their way there.
DaveH wrote:
...From my perspective, it seems like you (non-LDS) are
ignoring/misinterpreting Biblical evidence that pretty significantly
illustrates that Jesus is was not only the firstborn (created) in a
literal sense, but that he was also anointed to be God and creator
of our physical realm....something that is unique amongst all our
Heavenly Father's creation.
The concept of being anointed to be God is very foreign to most of us. Any
Scriptural justification for this, either Biblical or non-Biblical?
DAVEH: Why would it be
foreign to most
TTers? From
your posts, it appears you have a grasp of its importance. Are you
suggesting most
TTers don't
understand the meaning of Messiah?
Hmmmmm.....now
that I think about it from your perspective, I guess you wouldn't
accept that Jesus was anointed to be God, as I do. Right off hand, I
can't think of any scriptural justification from the Bible, but I think
there is some from
LDS
scripture. I'd have to think about it and do some page turning. Let
me know if you want me to dig up something.
DaveH wrote:
But as sons of God, we had the same roots
of our Elder Brother.
Same request: please supply Scriptural justification, either Biblical or
non-Biblical. I understand how he is my elder brother because of the
incarnation, but not in how we had the same roots prior to any mortal
existence. I see our roots as very different.
DAVEH: I understand that. As
you know, my view of his brotherhood predates the incarnation. I think
the fundamental difference here is that I believe we were spiritually
created in the pre-mortal existence. Rather than turn this into a big
LDS related theology discussion, let
me confine it to the Bible and mention a few passages that I believe is
related to our paradigm......
1)
Num 16:22 God is God of
the spirits of all flesh (an oblique reference that our spirits
existed before they took on mortal bodies of flesh)
2)
Heb 12:9 Confirmation
that God is the father of our spirits
3) Acts 17:28-29 Further confirmation that we are the offspring of
God
4)
Eph 1:4-5 & Tit 1:2
Paul tells us the Lo
rd made promises to us before the world began (would it not be
reasonable to think we were there when those promises were made?)
5) Job 1:6 Son's of God and Satan meet with the Lord (a council
meeting with the Lord of the above mentioned spirits and Satan)
6)
Gen 6:2 Son's of God marry
daughters of men (the spirit children take on mortal lives)
7)
Ecc 12:7 Spirits return to
God (indicates the beginning of our return journey home)
8)
Jn 3:13 Nobody goes
heaven except those who come from heaven, as did Jesus
9)
Jn 9:1-3 The Lord's
disciples understood that
tt
would have been hard for the guy to sin before he was born had he not
pre -mortally existed
.......Now I realize that you ha
ve different ways of understanding the above passages. In conjunction
with latter-day scripture, I find them a very compelling argument to
support my beliefs.
DaveH wrote:
... to be vehemently critical of our somewhat odd beliefs strikes me
as curious when you folks seem to struggle with the sonship question,
which is seemingly so simple from our theological perspective.
It is very simple from my theological perspective too. Problem is that not
everyone sees it as simply as I do. :-)
DAVEH: Which is exactly the observation I've been making.
DaveH wrote:
What is so hard about literally believing Jesus is literally
the firstborn of our Heavenly Father?
Because I don't see where Scripture refers to him as the firstborn of our
Heavenly Father. Firstborn refers to his humanity, his relationship with
man, and his being placed far above all other men.
DAVEH: Paul doesn't seem to frame it that way in
Col 1:15 when he refers to Jesus as
being the
firstborn of every
creature. And yes, I realize that 3 verses later he is also referred
to as the
firstborn of the
dead. That Paul would use a term to describe two different scenarios
is not unusual. The usage of
firstborn
is distinctly contrasted between
vss
15 & 18.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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