Re: [TruthTalk] A apologetic for the eternal sonship of Chr JD

NOTES ON ETERNAL SONSHIP begun 6/24/05

Factors that play into this discussion:

Begotten (monogenhs -- monogenes)

Used five times : John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Heb 11:17; I Jo4:9

A second Gk word prototodos -- (Heb. 1:6; Rev 1:5 and translated "begotten" and "firstborn" respectively) -- will not be considered in this study.. Suffice it to say that the two Greek words are not the same and do not refer to the same "begetting.".

It should be noted that nowhere in JOHN is there reference to the virgin birth. This accounting of Christ's coming into the world is not considered by John in his apoplogetic It is John's assignment in this writing to present the startling message that the God of creation came to draw men unto Himself. It is not simply that Christ is the unique representative of the Good News. Rather, it is that He is the Good News. For the Apostle, this message only works because Christ is God Himself and John presents this claim in no uncertain terms within this thoughtful and ancient presentation. It is not that Jesus is born into Sonship or John would have more to say about the virgin birth, rather the point of emphasis is that He becomes flesh. For those who would consider "Christianity," their decision has nothing to do with the question of Representative allegiance. -- choosing between one represent ative of "God" or another. Rather, the choice that is demanded with a reading of JOHN is the choice between accepting Christ Himself as the Great God Almighty into your life or not. It is as profoundly simple as that.

jt: So what is/was He on this earth JD? - "An eternal son" OR "the Great God Almighty?" There is something extremely double minded about your logic above.

With all this in mind, we see the beginnings of this theme with the very first passage of the book. In 1:1-5, Jesus is presented as word, life and light - in a way uniquely different for any other consideration or claim. It is out of this "uniqueness" that John presents the Christ he loves and serves. "Uniqueness" as applied to Christ is one of the themes of this book of JOHN.

jt: Sure he does ie: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God (John 1:1)

And later: "The words that I speak to you they are spirit and they are life" (John 6:63)

"The words I speak to you I speak not of myself but the Father that dwelleth in me He doeth the works (John 14:10)

The Father dwelt in Him just like Jesus dwells in us today - which is by way of the Holy Spirit which incidentally He was given without measure.

Because of this fact (assuming you agree), we see the Apostle establishing the uniqueness of Christ with the very beginnings of his letter. His introduction or perface reads from verse 1 through verse 18. It builds from one extraordinary fact , the Word, to another, Life and Light, to the final and most extraordinary consideration of all - His uniqueness as the Son of God and the eternal nature of that teaching.

jt: God's Word is spirit and it is life - God's Word is also eternal ie "All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field; the grass withereth, the flower fadeth because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it; surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth; but the Word of our God shall stand for ever" (Isaiah 40:6-8)

Being the "Word" is one thing, as is being "God," being "Life," being "Light." How this can be? is another matter altogether. And John establishes an explanation to this question in the teaching of the eternal Sonship of Christ (v 14-18). The word "unique" referred to above, is this word monogenes. Thayer (the lexicon) tells us the word means "single of its kind, only" and as it applies to Jesus as Son of God, one who has "no brethren."

jt: I don't think John establishes this teaching at all JD because Jesus does have "brethren" - by adoption we are his brethren, that is, if we are allowing His sanctification process in our lives: "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren" (Hebrews 2:11). His uniqueness is in the way and the purpose for which He came to this earth. Noone else has ever been born without a human father other than the first Adam and noone but God's Lamb was ever worthy to be a sacrifice for the sin of the rest of us. In Strongs the word monogenes is #3439 and it means only born, sole, only begotten child and yes, he is the only one who had a flesh body which was fathered by God the Holy Spirit. <snip>

RCH Lenski, an extraordinary scholar of the late 19^th century cautions us against the use of the word ("begotten" monogenes) as referencing the virgin birth. It is not that Christ became something different in nature and essence, but that he became something that He was not before -- flesh. Thank you, RC!! We must understand, then, that Christ, as the Son of God, is the word, the life and the light to this world. How is it that that this Word was God and was with God in the same moment of time? This question is almost forced upon the reader in the opening words of John's preface - it is answered in no uncertain terms with the closing words of the preface (v. 14 - 18).

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the [only Son] of the Father, full of grace and truth. John [the Baptist] bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, 'This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.' And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace [an exchange of the grace of the Law for the grace of God Himself in the Son - JD]. For the law was given through Moses, but [a contrast - JD] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time. The [only] Son, who is [who exists , whose very being is -- JD] into [eis] the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

In the following, you have my understanding of John 1:14-18. I make no pretense at enlisting the commentary of those quoted above. Judy, here is the argument for eternal Sonship from JD. I only wish my words could do justice to the teaching.

Christ is presented, even in becoming flesh, as having the glory of God !!! ---- the "glory of the Father" cannot be understood in other terms by believers. If you miss this point - allow me to restate in this wise: the phrase "the glory as of the only Son of the Father" is equal to "the glory of the Father," or "the glory of God Himself." "The glory .. as of the Father" is not a result of the becoming - it is the associated aspect of being God [ even in the flesh]; it is a beholding of a glory already present - the glory as of the Father! Just as the Father's glory predates "becoming flesh," so is the glory of Christ as Son -- for they are one and the same glory. We do not have the glory of Christ AND the glory of the Father --- rather there is but one "glory" and the Son is a part of the eternity and singleness of this glory ----------------- MAKING HIM UNIQUE!!!!!

jt: How do you figure Christ in the flesh had the glory of God in light of the 'kenosis' ie Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross (Philippians 2:5-8).

Not enough attention has been given to this "glory," I think. In John, chapters 5 and 10, we see that those who opposed Him understood that Christ's claim to be the Son of God made Him equal to God -- made Him God in fact !!!!! The claim of Sonship, then, is understood by those of His era to be attached to the very idea of being God, the very God of the Jews, who is, of course, eternal and predates all realities. There is a glory that is associated with being God, with being eternal, that is unique -- simply because it is the glory of God. In this text (1: 14-18) Christ, AS THE SON shares in this very glory.and is, therefore, the eternal Son of God.

jt: If John the apostle meant what you write above JD - then why does he write in 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled of the Word of life; for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested unto us." Later in Vs.3 he speaks of fellowship with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ but then in 1 John 5:7 he speaks of the three that bear record in heaven as "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost" - so I don't see it as being a case of "eternal sonship" at all. Jesus as son of God died on the cross - whereas God Himself can not die. God is a Spirit and spirits do not die. How do you explain this?

Christ poses a question about the credibility of the search for God when He challenges the Jewish leadership with this question: " How can you believe when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?" ( John 5:44). He follows this question with, yet, another remarkable statement of fact : " ..... if you believed in Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me? (v 46).

jt: In Phil Paul writes about ppl who "glory in their shame" so the word glory in and of itself is not loaded. Believing Moses gets back to believing the Word of God given to and through Moses - Jesus told the Jews "search the scriptures for they testify of me and ye have not his word abiding in you" (John 5:38). So John if what Jesus says is true and the OT scriptures testify of his "eternal sonship" then you, like the Jews, should be able to find it there rather than striving over one or two Greek words in the NT.

In "monogenes," we have a word expressing the fact that Christ is the one and only Son of God -- making Himself equal to God. Christ mirrors this very implied etymological reality with those very words as recorded in 5:44-46 ( ........ you do not seek the glory of the one and only ............ ) for HE IS THE ONE AND ONLY -------.. GOD. As Son of God, He IS God (John 5:18 - [the Jewish leadership, to their meager credit, did get something right] .) We should never loose sight of that revelation.

jt: Jesus said they didn't know the Father or Him so what did they get right? They didn't have any revelation. Jesus says they do not recognize Him because God's Word is not abiding in them - Here he is asking them to believe Him for the "works sake" in another place he tells them that if they had believed Moses they would also believe Him. I don't see where these Jews got any revelation.

As Son, He shares in the same eternity and glory. When we separate Christ from this eternity, we are left with on who is but a man !!!! His claims can have no greater influence in our lives than those of Mohammed if this be true.

jt: Malarkey JD. He is who He said He Is which is the Resurrection and the Life. He did not come in the glory of the Father as you claim. He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful man and his sole purpose in coming was for the suffering of death of the cross as an "eternal sacrifice" and since God can not die - how do you explain this?

How can this be???????? What is there in His relationship with the Father that makes His Sonship a shared existence with God - complete with the same glory and eternity?

jt: He is the Word of God and God is one with His Word as all men are whether they want to be or not and whether their words glorify God or whether they glory in their own shame (or what they should be ashamed of in light of His holiness)

It is because His existence as the unique Son is in (eis) the bosom of the Father. In the words of Christ "I and my Father are one," we have the truth of John 1:18 revealed.

jt: Yeah! Well God's Word apparently resides in his bosom and as God's Word He (Jesus) should be hidden in our (eis) bosom also so that we don't sin against God either.

When Jesus says "I and my Father are one," He speaks as the Son and lays claim to all that is unique to the Father's realty. How can it be any other way?

jt: As the monogenes with a "full measure" of the paraclete He delighted to do the will of the Father, and God called Him His beloved Son in whom He is well pleased. But this is not ALL He is for all eternity.

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] A apologetic for the eternal sonship of Chr JD

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