[TruthTalk] Fw:

[Lance Muir]

----- Original Message ----- From:  Hello Lance,        Long time no see. Bill has said this very well.  I'm going to rant on about the communal nature of faith as oppossed to faith being simply a matter of individual belief and will do so using quantum physics and the Book of Hebrews.          I like to think of this topic in sub-atomic terms.  Atoms are made of particles held together by some mysterious attraction.  The odd thing about those particles is that sometimes they are here, sometimes they are not.  They blip in and out of reality as we can see it.  Where they come from and where they go, no one really knows.  One of those particles even appears to have the ability to create matter out of nothing, but that's a topic for another day.  If we think of the new humanity created by God in Christ like it is an atom made up of sub-atomic particles it would look something like this.  The atom exists, i.e. humanity is saved, created anew in Christ Jesus, the Son of God become human and those joined to him in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.  Some of the individual particles of which the new atom consists blip in and out of this new reality.  Where and how they come and go is a mystery.  There is a strange attraction that holds it all together.  This we call the Holy Spirit, the fellowship of the Holy Spirit created by grace through the faith of Christ Jesus.  What the Holy Spirit does is unite us to Christ and bring us to participate in the Father/Son relationship of the Father and Son.  This relationship as it is expressed in human experience is that of faithfulness.  The Father who cannot be seen must prove himself faithful to the Son.  The Son, who cannot see the Father must trust the Father's faithfulness to his promises.  Yet, they also are held together in a Mysterious union in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.  If our salvation depends on our own capacity to trust (if it is salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ) then everyone of us is like one of those sub-atomic particles that blips in and out of God's new humanity.  The sub-atomic world is a chaotic world of mystery.  So is the Christian faith when approached individualistically.  There will come a day when the atom of the old humanity ceases to exist and the particles associated with it must also.  What happens to the particles bond tightly to it?  What happens to the particles in the new humanity that happen to be blipping out when God says, "'Today' is the day"?  The answer is a mystery.          The book of Hebrews addresses this situation a bit, particularly with respect to apostacy - renouncing faith in Christ even after having known him, i.e., the promised rest, his sprinkled blood.   He uses the illustration of the early Hebrews to whom God denied his rest because they refused to trust his promise. Even after having been delivered from Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, manna, quails, water from the rock, a pillar of fire and smoke, and a voice from the mountain...after all this "evidence" of God's faithfulness, they still refused to believe the promise and so God denied them the rest.  That generation did not get to enter the land, but the following one did. In the face of individuals falling away, the writer of Hebrews pushes the community of faith to continue to meet together, to encourage one another daily, and to let mutual love continue for as soon as they loose contact with the community, the evil of unbelief can creep in...the contingency of salvation falling upon individual belief.  We must be careful not to limit faith to individual belief in what God has done for us in Christ Jesus.  But rather look at this faith as being the faith of a community whom God has brought together through Christ in the Holy Spirit to trust the Father's faithfulness.  The only individual whose faith has really mattered is Jesus Christ who gives his faith to this new community he has created in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.  In this community of people held together by the love of God for us in Christ Jesus we find his faith, a faith that rests in the love and encouragement of fellow "perseverers".  The minute we fall back on our own faith, we inadvertantly become a blipping particle.  We blip in.  We blip out.  In and out and in and out.  An individual's faith is quite fickle.          Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen."  To define faith from this verse we must understand what the writer of Hebrews would say are the things hoped for and then dabble about in defining what assurance is.  First, looking through the letter for where the topic of hope pops up, we see two things standing out.  One is that Christ is returning.  The second is that we have a hope that enters the inner sanctuary of the heavenly temple, i.e., that Christ Jesus is the Mediator of the covenant of grace and he always lives to intercede for us.  That Christ is the great high priest of our confession (homologia - common word not individual word) after the order of Melchizedek, a high priest who is also King.  The King, the Lord of all creation has entered the heavenly sanctuary to make intercessions for us.  He has offered himself up as a propriating/expiating sacrifice to atone for our sins.  We are reconciled to God in his blood, i.e., our union with Christ in the Holy Spirit.  This hope is an "objective inward" experience as T.F. Torrance would say.  We are sprinkled by the blood.  We have the rest.  Both of these metaphors describe the experience of the Holy Spirit poured upon the worshipping community of perseverers.  Thus, the things hoped for are that Christ is our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary always living to make intercessions for us and he is our king who is returning to manifest his reign.  These are real to us in union with Christ by the fellowship of the Holy Spirit especially in Christian worship.        Secondly, The word which the NRSV ranslates as "assurance" and the NIV translates as "being sure of what we hope for" is our old friend hypostasis.  This is the word the Nicene fathers used to describe how each of the three persons of the Trinity are three unique persons.  Hebrews 1:3 says, "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."  He radiates God's glory like the corona around a solar eclipse and he is the hypostasis of God's very being, the exact or substantial imprint of God's being.  The same as God but God become human.  Hypostasis is rooted in the concept of substance.  It also reflects ideas of confidence and assurance, yet it goes beyond simply being sure of something.  It is a surety derived from shared substance.  We know the things we hope for in Christ are real because we share in his substance.        To have faith is to trust the fathers faithfulness to his promise to give us his own Sabbath rest, a rest that comes to us "Today" because we have been made worthy of it by Jesus Christ giving himself as the once and for all sacrifice and his intercessions and because we have been sprinkled in his blood, the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.  This faith comes to a community of believers.  That is why it is the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.  We share a common confession and must persevere to keep it.  This perseverence comes through setting our sights on Jesus in prayer, through mutual love, and encouragement.  It is our shared faith.  it is the faith of Christ Jesus given to us through our union with him in the Holy Spirit.  This common faith is the substance of the realities that are now invisible to us yet will be made manifest at Christ's return.    Lance I'm on vacation now so hopefully I can get by in the next few days.  June was a month of morning, noon, and nighters.  Hope all is well.   Peace, Randy     Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 01, 2005 17:33 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] ** Moderator commant ** Hi g, I've jotted a few thoughts pertaining to your question as to my understanding of "forgiveness" in the NT. Please enjoy:   I believe forgiveness of humanity is a present reality in Christ Jesus. There is no one living today who is not living in a state of ontological forgiveness (I use the term ontological to distinguish between our status in Christ and the practical application of that status in existential confession of sin). I believe further that redemption (2Pet 2.1), reconciliation (2Cor 5.18-19; Rom 5.10), restoration (i.e., recapitulation: Eph 1.10), justification (Rom 5.18), and atonement (1Joh 2.2; 2Cor 5.14), are a fait accompli in Christ Jesus, the One for the many (Rom .15-21), the living God, who is the savior of all humans, especially those who believe (1Tim 4.10). Hence I also believe that salvation is not just an eschatological possibility with contingencies resting upon human shoulders, it is reality right here, right now, for us all.   Those who believe in Jesus Christ respond to him by faith, whereby they are sealed with the Holy Spirit and will never see destruction (Eph 1.13ff; 4.30; 2Cor 1.21-22; Joh 5.24; Rom 8.1; 8.38-39; 1Joh 5.13). Those who do not believe fall into more than one category: those who cannot believe (infants and certain mentally disabled); those who could believe but have not heard; those who could believe but have not yet committed themselves to him by faith; and those who have heard, could believe, but are passionately rejecting the present witness of the Holy Spirit to Christ. This last group, if they should die in their denial, commit that sin for which there is no forgiveness -- which makes sense when one considers that they are refusing not only the one who has forgiven them, but the only one who can ultimately forgive them their sins; in denial they sever themselves from their Savior. The "unpardonable" aspect of this sin, however, is actually realized in the eschaton and not in this life -- hence what I understood you to be saying with the words, "one's denial of the presence of the future in history is precisely one's denial of Christ present to forgive him now in the person of the Holy Spirit."   And so, what about the fait accompli from above: Do these people remain in a state of redemption, etc., throughout their lifetime? Yes, I believe they do. These are those who are represented by the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. Although the inheritance is fully theirs, and at their Father's request they could join the party at any time, they stand within earshot of the celebration refusing to participate. Should they die out there in the cold, then, it will not be because they were not sons (and daughters) of God by way of adoption in Christ; it will be because they refused to participate in the "dance." They are his children but refuse to act as such.   Moreover, the fact that there is resurrection for everyone (1Cor 15.21-22) is, in my opinion, the strongest evidence for this fait accompli. When Jesus died he changed the nature of death for everyone. All are included in his death and all are included in his resurrection. As Representative Man, he is all things for all people. What he did in his person, he did for all persons, the One for the many; the many in the One. All are included in him (Rom 5.10ff; Col 1.17; Eph 1.10; 1Joh 2.2).   This, then, is the context for contemplating the "second death" on the other side of resurrection. The first death is on Christ, so to speak, in that he picks up the cost of that one -- great news, too, because there is resurrection! But there is no "sacrifice" to cover a blatant refusal of him (cf. Heb 6, no one can crucify again the Son of God); hence there is no pardon for the sin of rejection. And sin, whether in this lifetime or the next, only produces one thing and that is death (I will get into this further in my response to DaveH). To paraphrase what Jesus was saying, every sin that humans commit will be forgiven them (an act which has taken place in his passion), except the sin of rejecting the One who will die to effectuate the forgiveness of their sins (as attested to by the Holy Spirit). To reject Christ is to reject the One in whom there is forgiveness. And to do it unto death, is to have your name "blotted out" of the Lamb's book of life (Rev 3.5). There is therefore a second death which awaits those who have rejected him and have died in that state. In resurrected bodies they will be confronted by the consequence of that sin -- and this without a "Savior." Hence they will meet death again; this time picking up their own tab.    Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] ** Moderator commant ** what's you understanding of 'forgiveness' in the NT?   On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:35:55 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:   Couldn't have said it any better, not even if I were the Bish. Right on, G.     ----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] ** Moderator commant ** in Matt 12 one's present experience of JCs future forgiveness is of the Holy Spirit || Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page