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Good comments, John. I too was a bit
baffled by Benson's analogy (how's that for alliteration, you
poets?). For me, it was not so much that it misses the mark -- in
that sense I thought it actually pretty good -- but it employs
concepts that are more difficult to "visualize" than those they
were meant to represent. Hence I had a difficult time keeping my mind from just
plain "blipping" out on him :>)
That said, however, he makes some very good and
helpful points in the latter part of his address. You make mention to some
of them: hypostasis standing (pun intended for
those who know Greek) as that
which is "assurance"; and the relational aspect of
this word as that which defines or gives substance to "personhood," whether
it be in the heart of God or the "person" of Christ, or whether it be in us
as the only uniquely-created beings in God's image: "persons" being
beings-in-communion with him.
You also mentioned the role of Christ's
faith(fullness) in the saving action of God. When this is missed, it opens a
door to no end of misunderstandings, not the least being the one that posits
individual believers as the weak link in a long chain of salvation. The
truth is, there can be no link in this "chain" called "me"; for if
there were, that link would necessarily make me the co-author of my
salvation -- not only that, but it would throw the whole weight of this
salvific chain on my shoulders, since I am its weakest point. Stated
another way, the particular links may all pull together, but only so long
as mine doesn't break. And so, it not only posits me the
weak link, it makes me the Preeminent one as well, since its most
crucial thrust will always be on me.
Hence you have identified some really good stuff.
Thanks,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw:
Hey, thanks for this post (as always). I have Bill's post, of course, but it was worth a
review. To be frank about it, Randy;s "blippin" illustration (:-) ) does
not turn me on -- his theology does. There is so much
written (herein) that needs to be considered (by me).
Specifically, the notion that the faithfulness of God is a substantive
aspect of our vision of faith; also, the importance of the faith of
Christ. For me, two considerations that seemingly MUST be
presented are, at the same time, most difficult to put into words
- the trinity of God and the solo accompli of Christ including the role of His faith in
the saving action of God!!
It really frustrates me to hear the constant bashing of Lance Muir and
his liberal non-biblical concerns - when, in point of fact,
he and his company friends are remarkable students of the
Message.......remarkable. You have surrounded yourself with a
great cloud of witnesses.
Always "thank you" for keeping me in this loop.
JD - a very
retarded but happy saint (ignorance is bliss !!)
-----Original Message----- From: Lance Muir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected]Sent: Sun,
10 Jul 2005 05:15:33 -0400 Subject:
[TruthTalk] Fw:
----- Original Message -----
From: Hello Lance,
Long time no see. Bill has said this
very well. I'm going to rant on about the communal nature of faith as
oppossed to faith being simply a matter of
individual belief and will do so using quantum physics and the Book of
Hebrews.
I like to think of this topic
in sub-atomic terms. Atoms are made of particles held together by
some mysterious attraction. The odd thing about those particles is that
sometimes they are here, sometimes they are not. They blip in and out of
reality as we can see it. Where they come from and where they go, no one
really knows. One of those particles even appears to have the ability to
create matter out of nothing, but that's a topic for another day. If we
think of the new humanity created by God in Christ like it is an atom
made up of sub-atomic particles it would look something like this. The
atom exists, i.e. humanity is saved, created anew in Christ Jesus, the Son of
God become human and those joined to him in the fellowship of the Holy
Spirit. Some of the individual particles of which the new atom consists
blip in and out of this new reality. Where and how they come and go is a
mystery. There is a strange attraction th at holds it all
together. This we call the Holy Spirit, the fellowship of the Holy
Spirit created by grace through the faith of Christ Jesus. What the Holy
Spirit does is unite us to Christ and bring us to participate in the
Father/Son relationship of the Father and Son. This relationship as it
is expressed in human experience is that of faithfulness. The Father who
cannot be seen must prove himself faithful to the Son. The Son, who
cannot see the Father must trust the Father's faithfulness to his
promises. Yet, they also are held together in a Mysterious union in the
fellowship of the Holy Spirit. If our salvation depends on our own
capacity to trust (if it is salvation by grace through faith in Jesus
Christ) then everyone of us is like one of those sub-atomic particles
that blips in and out of God's new humanity. The sub-atomic world is a
chaotic world of mystery. So is the Christian faith when approached
individualistically. There will come
a day when the atom of the old humanity ceases to exist and the particles
associated with it must also. What happens to the particles bond tightly
to it? What happens to the particles in the new humanity that happen to
be blipping out when God says, "'Today' is
the day"? The answer is a mystery.
The book of Hebrews addresses this
situation a bit, particularly with respect to apostacy - renouncing faith in Christ even after having known
him, i.e., the promised rest, his sprinkled blood. He uses the
illustration of the early Hebrews to whom God denied his rest because they
refused to trust his promise. Even after having been delivered from
Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, manna, quails, water from the
rock, a pillar of fire and smoke, and a voice from the mountain...after all
this "evidence" of God's faithfulness, they still refused to believe the
promise and so God denied them the rest. That generation did not get to
enter the land, but the following one did. In the face of individuals falling
away, the writer of Hebrews pushes the community of faith to continue to meet
together, to encourage one another daily, and to let mutual love
continue for as soon as they loose contact with the community, the evi l
of unbelief can creep in...the contingency
of salvation falling upon individual belief. We must be careful not to
limit faith to individual belief in what God has done for us in Christ
Jesus. But rather look at this faith as being the faith of a community
whom God has brought together through Christ in the Holy Spirit to trust the
Father's faithfulness. The only individual whose faith has really
mattered is Jesus Christ who gives his faith to this new community he has
created in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. In this community of
people held together by the love of God for us in Christ Jesus we find his
faith, a faith that rests in the love and encouragement of fellow "perseverers". The minute we fall back on
our own faith, we inadvertantly become a
blipping particle. We blip in.
We blip out. In and out and in and out. An individua l's faith is
quite fickle.
Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is the
assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." To define
faith from this verse we must understand what the writer of Hebrews would say
are the things hoped for and then dabble about in defining what assurance
is. First, looking through the letter for where the topic of hope pops
up, we see two things standing out. One is that Christ is
returning. The second is that we have a hope that enters the inner
sanctuary of the heavenly temple, i.e., that Christ Jesus is the Mediator of
the covenant of grace and he always lives to intercede for us. That
Christ is the great high priest of our confession (homologia - common word not individual word) after the order of
Melchizedek, a high priest who is also
King. The King, the Lord of all creation has entered the heavenly
sanctuary to make intercessions for us
. He has offered himself up as a propriating/expiating sacrifice to atone for our sins. We
are reconciled to God in his blood, i.e., our union with Christ in the
Holy Spirit. This hope is an "objective inward" experience as T.F.
Torrance would say. We are sprinkled by the blood. We have the
rest. Both of these metaphors describe the experience of the Holy Spirit
poured upon the worshipping community of perseverers. Thus, the things hoped for are that Christ is
our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary always living to make
intercessions for us and he is our king who is returning to manifest his
reign. These are real to us in union with Christ by the fellowship of
the Holy Spirit especially in Christian worship.
Secondly, The word which the NRSV ranslates as "assurance" and the NIV translates as "being sure
of what we hope for" is our old friend hypostasis. This is the word the Nicene fathers used to describe how each of the
three persons of the Trinity are three unique persons. Hebrews
1:3 says, "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation
of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had
provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty
in heaven." He radiates God's glory like the corona around a solar
eclipse and he is the hypostasis of
God's very being, the exact or substantial imprint of God's being.
The same as God but God& nbsp;become human. Hypostasis is rooted in the concept of substance. It also
reflects ideas of confidence and assurance, yet it goes beyond simply being
sure of something. It is a surety derived from shared substance.
We know the things we hope for in Christ are real because we share in his
substance.
To have faith is to trust the
fathers faithfulness to his promise to give us his own Sabbath rest, a rest
that comes to us "Today" because we have been made worthy of it by Jesus
Christ giving himself as the once and for all sacrifice and his intercessions and because we have been sprinkled
in his blood, the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. This faith comes to a
community of believers. That is why it is the fellowship of the Holy
Spirit. We share a common confession and must persevere to keep
it. This perseverence comes through
setting our sights on Jesus in prayer, through mutual love, and
encouragement. It is our shared faith. it is the faith of
Christ Jesus given to us through our union with him in the Holy Spirit.
This common faith is the substance of the realities that are now
invisible to us yet will be made manifest at Christ's retur n.
Lance I'm on vacation now so hopefully I can get by in the next few
days. June was a month of morning, noon, and nighters. Hope all is well.
Peace,
Randy
Lance
----- Original Message -----
Sent: July 01, 2005 17:33
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] ** Moderator commant **
Hi g,
I've jotted a few thoughts pertaining to
your question as to my understanding of "forgiveness" in the NT. Please enjoy:
I believe forgiveness of
humanity is a present reality in Christ Jesus. There is no one living today
who is not living in a state of ontological forgiveness (I use the term
ontological to distinguish between our status in Christ and the practical
application of that status in existential confession of sin). I believe
further that redemption (2Pet 2.1), reconciliation (2Cor 5.18-19; Rom 5.10), restoration (i.e., recapitulation:
Eph 1.10), justification (Rom 5.18), and atonement (1Joh 2.2; 2Cor 5.14), are a fait accompli in Christ Jesus, the One for the many (Rom .15-21), the living God, who is the savior
of all humans, especially those who believe (1Tim 4.10). Hence I also
believe that salvation is not just an eschatological possibility with contingencies resting upon
human shoulders, it is reality right here, right now, for us all.
Those who believe in Jesus Christ respond
to him by faith, whereby they are sealed with the Holy Spirit and will never
see destruction (Eph 1.13ff; 4.30; 2Cor
1.21-22; Joh 5.24; Rom 8.1; 8.38-39; 1Joh 5.13). Those who do not
believe fall into more than one category: those who cannot believe (infants
and certain mentally disabled); those who could believe but have not heard;
those who could believe but have not yet committed themselves to him by
faith; and those who have heard, could believe, but are passionately
rejecting the present witness of the Holy Spirit to Christ. This last group,
if they should die in their denial, commit that sin for which there is no
forgiveness -- which makes sense when one considers that they are
refusing not only the one who has forgiven them, but the only one who
can ultimately forgive them their sins; in denial they sever themselves
from th eir Savior. The "unpardonable"
aspect of this sin, however, is actually realized in the eschaton and not in this life -- hence
what I understood you to be saying with the words, "one's denial of the
presence of the future in history is precisely one's denial of
Christ present to forgive him now in the person of the Holy
Spirit."
And so, what about the fait accompli from above:
Do these people remain in a state of redemption, etc., throughout their
lifetime? Yes, I believe they do. These are those who are represented
by the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. Although
the inheritance is fully theirs, and at their Father's request they
could join the party at any time, they stand within earshot of the
celebration refusing to participate. Should they die out there in the cold,
then, it will not be because they were not sons (and daughters) of God by
way of adoption in Christ; it will be because they refused to participate in
the "dance." They are his children but refuse to act as such.
Moreover, the fact that there is resurrection
for everyone (1Cor 15.21-22) is, in my opinion, the
strongest evidence for this fait
accompli. When Jesus died he changed the
nature of death for everyone. All are included in his death and all are
included in his resurrection. As Representative Man, he is all things for
all people. What he did in his person, he did for all persons, the One for
the many; the many in the One. All are included in him (Rom 5.10ff; Col 1.17; Eph 1.10; 1Joh 2.2).
This, then, is the context for
contemplating the "second death" on the other side of resurrection. The
first death is on Christ, so to speak, in that he picks up the cost of
that one -- great news, too, because there is resurrection! But there is
no "sacrifice" to cover a blatant refusal of him (cf. Heb
6, no one can crucify again the Son of God); hence there is no
pardon for the sin of rejection. And sin, whether in this lifetime or the
next, only produces one thing and that is death (I will get into this
further in my response to DaveH). To
paraphrase what Jesus was saying, every sin that humans commit will be
forgiven them (an act which has taken place in his passion), except the
sin of rejecting the One who will die to effectuate the
forgiveness of their sins (as attested to by the Holy Spirit). To
reject Christ is to reject the One in whom the re is forgiveness. And to do
it unto death, is to have your name "blotted out" of the Lamb's book of
life (Rev 3.5). There is therefore a second death which awaits those who
have rejected him and have died in that state. In resurrected bodies they
will be confronted by the consequence of that sin -- and this without a
"Savior." Hence they will meet death again; this time picking up their
own tab.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:09
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] ** Moderator
commant **
what's you
understanding of 'forgiveness' in the NT?
Couldn't have said it any better, not even
if I were the Bish. Right on,
G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:57
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] **
Moderator commant **
in Matt
12 one's present experience of JCs future forgiveness is of the Holy
Spirit
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