I don't but NEW AGE Doctrine! --- Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Kevin - what are you doing? Don't you know that when God spoke of > death in the garden it was figurative. > When Jesus spoke to that man who wanted to bury his father in Luke > 9:60 that was figurative too. > I'm sure certain persons will also claim that Paul is speaking > figuratively here also (Ephesians 2:1) > Got to wrest it in a certain direction now.... with the right spin. > jt > > On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Ep 2;1 And you hath he quickened, who WERE dead in trespasses and > > sins > > > > Quickened as in made ALIVE those that were DEAD.... > > > > problem is so many were never made alive > > > > --- Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > That's a fine conjecture, Izzy. But it is only that. Yours is not > > > a > > > definitive answer. There may also be other ways to address and > > > understand this statement. I am simply attempting to demonstrate > > that > > > you are calling upon a doctrine to explain that which is not > > stated > > > explicitly. If you want to call this a "doctrine of men," then > > that > > > is fine. If you want to call it the God's honest true, you can do > > > that, too -- as long as you realize that it is conjecture either > > way. > > > > > > Bill > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: ShieldsFamily > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:43 AM > > > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > > > > > > I understand your viewpoint. However I don't know how else I > > would > > > describe the lost-even Jesus said "Let the dead (obviously not > > > physically, but spiritually) bury the dead." izzy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill > > Taylor > > > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:30 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that there is a possibility that two people can come to > > > similar conclusions without the necessity of collaboration, but I > > > find it highly unlikely that they would call their doctrine by > the > > > same name and this when the words themselves are not found in the > > > Scriptures. > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, one would have to have received her theology in a > cave > > not to have heard of "spiritual death" on many occasions > throughout > > > her Christian experience. This doctrine is one of the most > > commonly > > > touted beliefs in the church -- thanks to Augustine and the > > > tremendous impact he has had on Christendom. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am very content to believe that Judy did not know that > > Augustine > > > is the one who first articulated this belief, but I am reluctant > > to > > > accept that she came to it on her own. It is far too popular a > > > teaching for that to have happened. As with the rest of us, I am > > > confident that she too has heard this language since her earliest > > > experience with Christianity. And so I rather suspect that she > has > > > been taught this doctrine as if it were right there in the Bible. > > > Thus it functions as an a priori in her beliefs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: ShieldsFamily > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:54 PM > > > > > > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking of when people assume that jt or someone else > > got > > > their doctrines from someone else when perhaps they didn't. Just > > > because a teaching is "out there" doesn't mean it necessarily > > > affected someone who believes along the same lines. Would you > > agree? > > > iz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill > > Taylor > > > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:52 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, I get your drift. But I am not so dishonest as to claim > > > this is how it happened in my case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: ShieldsFamily > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:38 PM > > > > > > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a note: If someone learns a truth from the Lord via > the > > > scriptures or direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, might not > > they > > > also be in agreement (without even knowing it) with someone else > > who > > > learned and taught that same truth in previous generations? If > so, > > > that does not mean that the first one who learned it imparted it > > to > > > the one who learned it later, does it? That also does not mean > the > > > second person who learned it owes anything to the first person. > > And > > > it does not mean the first one who learned it was an "authority" > > for > > > the second one, who might never have even heard anything about > the > > > first one. One can't just assume that because a "famous" person > > > wrote about a certain doctrine that this has affected someone > else > > > who may have the same/similar doctrine. Get my drift? izzy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill > > Taylor > > > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:50 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > > > > > > > > > David writes > I don't think I have seen anybody tout > > Wesley > > > or Dake as authoritative, > > > > > > I suppose in a narrow sense you are partially correct, > > David. I > > > seem to remember Judy quoting Dake at length and verbatim, yet > she > > > did it without even so much as a fleeting reference in his > > direction. > > > Hence I concur with you, in that, while she used his beliefs > > > authoritatively in her argumentation, she did it in a way that > can > > > hardly be construed as that of touting him. > > > > > > This raises some interesting questions, though, concerning > > what > > > it means to treat another man's beliefs as "authoritative." Must > > one > > > cite another person, when using his words, before he or she is > > > complicit in treating his beliefs as authoritative? I think not, > > but > > > I am curious what you think. And does one have to cite another's > > > influence upon her theology, before she has made his beliefs > > > "authoritative" in her frame of reference? Again, I don't think > > so, > > > but I am wondering what you think. For example, Judy espouses a > > > "spiritual death" doctrine, yet refuses to acknowledge that the > > > doctrine she espouses was first set forth by Augustine. My > > question > > > is this: Does this doctrine not govern her thoughts as it relates > > > to > > > the human condition? Stated another way, does it not act > > > authoritatively in her belief system? I think it does. And this > > > whether she admits to Augustinian influences or not. But again I > > am > > > wondering what you think. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or are you suggesting something different? Like, for > > instance, > > > if I say, "This is how it is -- blah, blah, blah," then you might > > > say > > > that there is nothing authoritative about that, because those are > > > just my own beliefs. But if I say, "Dake or Augustine says this > is > > > how it is -- blah, blah, blah," then you will respond that I am > > > setting forth Dake's beliefs or Augustine's beliefs as > > authoritative, > > > and that they have now become the "doctrines of men." Is that how > > > it > > > works? What if they were really Dake's beliefs all along -- and I > > > mean his words verbatim -- but I just acted as though they were > my > > > own, would that make a difference as far as their "authoritative" > > > quotient in your estimation? > > > > > > These are the things that I am wondering about, because I > am > > > trying to understand what makes the espousal of one man's beliefs > > > more "authoritative," in your eyes, than the espousal of another > > > man's beliefs. In fact, I find it rather disturbing that you are > > so > > > willing to give yourself and others a pass on this, but want to > > take > > > issue with me concerning Barth and Torrance. The truth is, I have > > > written very sparingly concerning Barth, although I do esteem him > > > highly. And I have been very candid throughout about both my > > > appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the > > > formation of my beliefs -- which is indeed quite significant. But > > > David, I want to say, so what? It is obvious that Wesley has had > a > > > similar impact upon the formation of your beliefs. What's the big > > > deal about admitting this? Why are you so set on equivocating at > > this > > > point? I don't get it. > > > > > > David writes > some on TruthTalk do believe in doctrines > of > > > men. Do you agree? > > > > > > Yes, David, I do. But I would not agree that this is prima > > > facie a negative thing. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:59 AM > > > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > > > > > > > JD wrote: > > > > >>> Not one person on this site believes in > > > > >>> "doctrines of men." > > > > > > > > David Miller wrote: > > > > >> I hope that you allow that some of us have a different > > > > >> perspective on this point. Some here tout Joseph > Smith > > > > >> while others tout Barth and Torrance. > > > > > > > > Bill wrote: > > > > > ... and others Wesley and Dake. What's your point? > > > > > > > > I don't think I have seen anybody tout Wesley or Dake as > > > authoritative, at > > > > least not on the level of Joseph Smith, Barth, or > > Torrance, > > > but in any > > > case, > > > > my point is that some on TruthTalk do believe in > doctrines > > of > > > men. Do you > > > > agree? > > > > > > > > Peace be with you. > > > > David Miller. > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with > salt, > > > that you may > > > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > > > http://www.InnGlory.org > > > > > > > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send > > an > > > email to > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. > > If > > > you have a > > > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > ---------- > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you > > > may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > > http://www.InnGlory.org > > > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email > to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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