[TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

[Judy Taylor]

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: Bill was using the above to say that God destroyed sin because he believes everyone was assumed in the resurrection but this is not what Paul is saying here.   I agree that Paul was not saying this in this passage.  However, Paul was saying that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, not in the likeness of pre-sin Adam, but in the likeness of post-sin Adam.   jt: Whether it's pre-sin or post-sin it is still "likeness" David and we know Jesus had no sin. "Who did no sin neither was guile found in his mouth; who when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered he threatened not but committed himself to Him that judgeth righteously (1 Pet 2:22)   Judy wrote: Paul writes that Christ condemned sin in the flesh and he then goes on to say it is  "so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).   Amen.  How do we receive the power to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh?  Well, one way is in recognizing that big brother Jesus did it.   jt: He couldn't have done it with the same kind of weak flesh and spiritual inheritance that most of us were born into David. The iniquities of the fathers bypassed Him since His father had no iniquities and he was blessed with the Spirit without measure. We see his example.  Such effects our conscience tremendously.  No longer is it just a command from heaven, but a living, breathing person just like us showed us how it is done and how we can expect others to react to it and how we will have to deal with the frailty of our flesh as we too walk after the Spirit.   Judy wrote: Romans 6 (the whole chapter) is teaching about Baptism and being buried with him in baptism into death then rising into newness of life (see 2 Cor 5:17) so Paul uses the analogy of the resurrection to describe the New Birth and it's aftermath. But in answer to your question.  No I don't believe our resurrection will be exactly like his.  His body saw no corruption whereas ours will and there is no way to get around that.   Those who are alive when he returns will not see corruption, so there is a way around it.   jt: For a few whoever they may be.   Are you sure you are not dodging my point here?  Do you not expect to be resurrected in the manner of Jesus?  Is he not called the firstborn from the dead?   jt: Actually I was raised from the dead when I was Born of the Spirit and afterwards received a baptism in the Holy Spirit and this is what I believe Romans 6 refers to, but yes I do believe that those who are His will be raised at the last trump.   Judy wrote: I do believe there are some important differences as follows: We are conceived in sin and iniquity (Psalm 51:5)   Do you believe in the Catholic and Calvin doctrine of original sin, that we are born guilty of sin before God?  I will wait to address this more thoroughly after I have learned if this is what you believe.  This passage is a primary one used to teach this.   jt: I don't know what the RCC and Calvin teach about this but I do believe that we are all procreated and born in the first Adam with an inheritance in sin - yes.  Most of us that is unless our ancestors have been godly and inherited blessing for us.   Judy wrote: We are unclean (Job 14:4)   When we are born?   jt: Yes, this is what Job was talking about when he said "how can one make something clean that is unclean?" or "how can a leopard change it's spots?"  Sin is the human condition, not just an action.   Judy wrote: We are estranged from God from the womb (Psalm 58:3)   And Jesus was estranged from God on the cross, was  he not?  Did this defile him?   jt: Yes it did; this is why He cried "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" for the first time ever He and the Father were separated because of OUR FILTH AND SIN.   Judy wrote: We are born of the flesh (John 3:6) or carnal.   So was Jesus (John 1:14, 1 John 4:2).   jt: No, (John 3:31) tells us that He that comes from above is above all.      Judy wrote: We are earthly (John 3:31)   Yes, Jesus was unique in this sense, that he was from heaven.   Judy wrote: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of his mother (Luke 1:35   Yes, another way in which he was unique.   Judy wrote: Jesus was holy from the womb (Luke 1:41)   Yes, I agree.   Judy wrote: Jesus was born of the Spirit (John 3:6) with a flesh physical body Jesus is from heaven (John 3:31)   Yes, yes.  Why are these objections to the idea that his flesh was physically descended from Abraham?  Why would these be objections that Jesus shared the same genetic material as Mary, and as such, had the same sinful tendencies of the flesh that we do?  This does not mean that he sinned.  It means that he battled the same temptations that we do.   jt: Maybe I am objecting because I don't see "flesh" as the physical genetic body actually a deceitful and stony heart is our problem - we have a heart problem which is the source of all of our other problems; the poor old body is just the house we get to live in while we are on this earth but it has no mind of it's own and just does what we tell it to.   Judy wrote: It was not the fact that he took upon himself a flesh body that enabled him to conquer sin in the flesh; the battle was spiritual and it was won in the wilderness when he overcame in the same three areas that A&E were overome in which were: The lust of the eyes; The lust of the flesh;  The boastful pride of life   You are straying from the point of Romans 8:3.  Paul explains how the law could not do it because of the weakness of the flesh, but what the law could not do, Jesus did.  He did it by coming in the flesh of sinful man, conquering the temptations of it, now we receive his same spirit and can conquer it too.  Where the law failed, Christ succeeded.   jt: Yes He did succeed because he was not saddled with the same old fleshly weakness that the rest of humanity had but I know I will never convince you of this, you will have to see it in God's Word for yourself.   Judy wrote: Tempted means that we have the thought and along with it the choice to aquiesce (as Eve did and then Adam) or resist in obedience to our heavenly Father.Jesus did the latter using the sword of the Spirit against the enemy who tempted him.   Temptation is more than this.  James says that man is tempted when he is drawn away of his lust and enticed.  This is exactly how Jesus was tempted. When he hungered (flesh), Satan tempted him to turn stones to bread.  When he desire authority and power (flesh), Satan offered it to him.   jt: Today I was reading an interesting prophecy about Christ which reads in part "He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many for he shall bear their iniquities" (Isaiah 53:11)  So to me it appears that it was more than a physical thing.  In Hosea we are told that God's ppl perish for lack of knowledge. Walking in God's ways is profitable in more ways than one.   Judy wrote: Yes; He also became tired and weary, had no place to lay his head; He was sad and wept over Jerusalem; was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows and aquainted with grief. The rest was layed upon Him at Calvary so He ran the gamut.   David Miller wrote: Compare this with the teaching of James that the source of all temptation is the flesh: James 1:13-15 (13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.  (15) Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.   Judy wrote: But He wasn't drawn away into lust was He and He didn't die for His lust either. It was OURS   He was drawn away OF his own lust.  He was enticed, but he never yielded to it.  We see the picture of how he resisted such temptations in the wilderness.  The flesh was the basis by which he was tempted.  The flesh made the temptations attractive to him in the same way that our flesh makes such temptations attractive.   jt: He wasn't laying around Paradise looking for something to relieve the boredom - He was out in a barren and rocky wilderness and he had been fasting for weeks.  The adversary was playing on his natural needs which is not lust, nor is it sin.  He was hungry and thirsty which are natural appetites rather than lust. The temptation for him is in the way to fulfill these needs.   Yes, he resisted these temptations, but not as a God in heaven who was looking down wondering why his fleshly creatures keep failing, but as one of us, as our brother, he was tempted and was victorious over these temptations.   jt: I don't believe we entered into brotherhood with Him until we were both of the same spirit. At this point, during his earthly ministry and when He went to the cross we were His enemies.   David Miller wrote: It seems rather clear that the flesh of Jesus was not sinless as the Roman Catholics and Augustine teach, but rather his flesh was just like the flesh of the rest of mankind.  His victory in the weakness of this flesh is very important for us, for our hope of salvation from sin, and for our hope of the resurrection.   jt: I don't see weakness in His flesh David but if the point you are making is that He had the same limitations during His earthly ministry as we do now which is post cross and post resurrection, Born Again and Baptized in the Holy Spirit then I would say almost.  I believe we have more to overcome many times but He makes that possible; also He was given the Spirit without measure ...   Judy wrote: I'm still not seeing why this is so important to you; especially since God talks more about being pleased with the "suffering of His soul"  (Isaiah 53:10,11)   His soul suffered because of his flesh.  If his flesh had no selfish tendencies, he would not have sweat drops of blood in the garden.   jt: Hmmm that's interesting; I've always heard it is the other way around ie: A man's spirit can sustain his infirmities but a broken spirit who can bear.  Also why would it be selfish or unusual to be anxious over such a prospect. It was much worse than going to the dentist.   If Jesus was a man just like me in every way, it gives me great hope, great confidence, great assurance.  I know that I can be like him because he has promised it to me, and more than that, he came into an existence just like me and showed me how it is done.  Why is this important to me?  I guess it is like the difference between reading an instruction manual for how to operate something I find complicated versus having the inventor himself come over and spend time with me showing me how it all works.  It is like the difference between having a General command an army to go to battle from Washington D.C. versus having the General come eat with the soldiers and then lead the charge out on the front lines.  Comprehending the fact that a holy and magnificent God became human flesh in order to express his love for me and conquer sin makes me well up with commitment and dedication and passion for him.  I am a debtor to him and owe him all that I am.  I'm not sure how else to express how my recognition of his humanity effects me so much.   jt: Thanks for that; I have the same kind of gratefulness David but without His "weakness of the flesh" concept.  I don't believe any of us are called to replicate what He did because only He could have done that and this is one of the reasons I can't let go of the idea that he was a pure, holy, and spotless Lamb.  None of us would qualify.  However, we are all called to be conformed to His image (both men and women); reckon that old sinful weak person DEAD and move on in newness of life.   judyt.