Man, you may be talking to fast for me. I am following along, here, and did not intend my comments below to be anything other than a long question to Bill (especially) Your questions were good, as well.
Eternal whatever is something that I am still working on. Right now, I see some raised to eternal life and others to destruction. Heaven is the reasonable conclusion to the life lived by a believer. Hell (death and destruction) is the reasonable conclusion to a life lived in rejection of all that God has offered to the person. The scriptures below, seem to contrast quickening (life) to death. Why is the prefix "spiritual" not applied -- especially sense there was such a word as "spiritual" avaiable to the writers? I do know that those who do not follow the way of the Lord are "dead already."
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Perry Locke <cpl2602@hotmail.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:55:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
John, will everyone be raised to eternal life? And, will all have the same state? If so, then why is salvation desirable? What is a term we can use while one is still alive to indicate whether they will be saved or not? how about "spiritually alive" (saved) or "spiritually dead" (not saved)?
Perry
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:50:32 -0400
>
>
>Do I miss the point? The body, soul, mind and spirit are so integral to >each other as to be without separation. If we are alive , we are alive in >total. If we are dead, we are dead in total. Our bodies will be raised >and reunited with soul mind and spirit (correct?) THEN transformed into a >form we have yet to learn (I John 3:2) "Spiritual death" as a phrase >tends to eliminate from our thinking the body, the mind and perhaps the >spirit or the soul (if there is a difference). >??????????????????????????
>
>JD
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:34:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
>
>
>Bill,
>
> It appears in scripture that there is a point at which one becomes >"spiritually alive". Often, this is referred to as "quickeneing". Check out >these verses:
& gt;
>Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and >sins;
>
>Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together >with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
>
>Colossians 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision >of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all >trespasses;
>
>1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for >the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, >but quickened by the Spirit:
>
>So, we might think of "spiritual death" as being "dead in trespasses and >sins". It is when we come to believe and trust in Jesus (and all that it >implies) that we are "quickened", or gain spiritual life.
>
>How about these verses:
>
>Jo hn 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and >believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come >into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
>
>1 John 3:14 John We know that we have passed from death unto life, because >we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
>
>If we can pass from death unto life if we are not dead first? Not >physically dead, but spiritually dead.
>
>By the way, what difference does it make if I understand this or not? "If >thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in >thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved". >Both of these apply to me. Would you assume that I am saved because of >this?
>
>As for those who are unable to reason and understand the gospel, I believe >that they are not held accountable until they first know right from wrong >and understand that they are sinners, i.e., convicted by the Holy Spirit of >their sin.
>
>Perry
>
> >From: "Bill Taylor" <wmtaylor@plains.net>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
> >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:08:22 -0600
> >
> >Perry wrote > The greater message here is that those who choose not to > >follow Jesus are "spiritually dead". That is, they do not have the Spirit > >of the Lord dwelling in them. The man he chose as an example wanted to > >tarry from following Jesus until his father passed away, thus putting his > >family above Jesus.
> >
> >
> >Well, this is not exactly what I had in mind, Perry; although, I do agree > >with your final statement.
> >
> >Would you mind clarifying your opening comments? Is this how you view > >"spiritual death": those who do not have the Spirit of the Lord dwelling >in >them are spiritually dead, and those who do have the Spirit of the Lord > >dwelling in them are spiritually alive? Was the Spirit of the Lord > >indwelling Jesus' followers prior to his ascension? What do you think: >were >those followers spiritually dead, or were they spiritually alive? Are >all >non-believers spiritually dead -- infants and unborn babies included? >What >ab out the mentally retarded: are they spiritually dead, or do they >have the >Spirit of God indwelling them?
> >
> >Just curious,
> >
> >Bill
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 10:13 PM
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
> >
> >
> > > The greater message here is that those who choose not to follow Jesus > >are
> > > "spiritually dead". That is, they do not have the Spirit of the Lord
> > > dwelling in them. The man he chose as an example wanted to tarry from
> > > following Jesus until his father passed away, thus putting his family > >above
> > > Jesus.
> > >
> > > >From: "Bill Taylor" <wmtaylor@plains.net>
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: <[email protected]>
> > > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
> > > >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:33:26 -0600
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Would someone else please step in and help Judy through this? I would > >very
> > > >much appreciate it.
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >Bill
> > > > From: Judy Taylor
> > > >
> > > ; > Bill wrote: I actually don't think we've got that much left to argue
> > > >about. Both you and Judy have said that you do not think of >"spiritual
> > > >death" as literally being dead in the spirit. Hence you are both > >treating
> > > >your concept as a metaphor, and this whether you realize it or not, >and >so
> > > >I don't really have an issue with either of your positions.
> > > >
> > > > jt: Why can't we just call life what God calls it and death what God
> > > >calls it? Why do we have to qualify with all of these advanced
> > > >linguistics?
> > > >
> > > > In response to David's expressed concerns, Judy wrote: This does not
> > > >mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically > >dead -
> > > >it means that if something does not change they will inherit both at > >the
> > > >last day.
> > > >
> > > > And in response to her, you (Izzy) wrote: A "spiritually dead" > >person is
> > > >going to hell when he physically dies. He already doesn't "get it" > >about
> > > >things of the Spirit. And you also wrote to me, If folks in that > >condition
> > > >die to today they are hell-bound. ... It simply defines for us that > >they
> > > >are not actually physically dead yet. These statements treat >"spiritual
> > > >death" in a metaphorical sense and not a literal one.
> > > >
> > > > jt: Sounds to me as though you are evading the point Bill - what
> > > >difference does the word make life is lif e and death is death so far >as >God
> > > >is concerned - now what does He mean by this concept?
> > > >
> > > > You ask in a separate post what the difference is between us? The
> > > >difference is this: I let the word "death" or "dead" supply the > >metaphor
> > > >without adding "spiritual" to it. You add a word and then treat the >two >--
> > > >spiritual + death -- as a metaphor for something else, as you both > >explain
> > > >above.
> > > >
> > > > jt: I have a question. What kind of death is God talking about > >then?
> > > >In the garden Adam died the day he ate from the wrong tree, yet he > >lived
> > > >another 960yrs physically and the whole time he had a working body, a
> > > >conscious soul, and a spirit (albeit one that had lost communion with > >God).
> > > > Since a metaphor is defined as a similitude reduced to a single word > >-
> > > >your definition is in error. God is not using similitude or metaphor > >here
> > > >- When He says "death" he means "death" and since the death Adam
> > > >experienced that day was not physical, nor was it alzheimers (brain >or >soul
> > > >death). What do you suppose it was?
> > > >
> > > > Why do I have a problem with this? Because of that centuries-old
> > > >doctrine of "spiritual death," which literally does refer to one's > >spirit
> > > >as being dead until it is regenerated.
> > > >
> > > > jt: You are not dealing with the truth of scripture then. You ar e
> > > >dealing with some "centuries old doctrine of man"
> > > >
> > > > Neither of you seem to "get it" that "spiritual death" is not > >biblical
> > > >language; it is a doctrine which speaks to biblical concepts; it is a
> > > >synthesis, a conclusion. You have picked up on the language of this
> > > >doctrine, but the concepts that it represents are treated differently > >by
> > > >you than by those who adhere to the classic doctrine.
> > > >
> > > > jt: No Bill - You are the one hamstrung by this doctrine. I am not
> > > >dealing with any such thing and neither is Izzy; the dead burying >their
> > > >dead is not speaking of physical or soulish death since they were >able > ;to
> > > >dig a hole and had presence of mind enough not to let a dead body >just >lay
> > > >around.
> > > >
> > > > Yet, how am I to know that this is what you are doing when I see you
> > > >using the language of that old doctrine? I can't know that you are > >using it
> > > >differently, until after I have been through a very long process with > >you.
> > > >Why not drop the language and then, when it is necessary, explain >your
> > > >concept by using "death" as the metaphor which speaks to your >perceived
> > > >conclusions? At least this way people will not be so likely to
> > > >misunderstand you going in.
> > > >
> > > > jt: Why would Izzy and I assume that everyone we speak to ha s a load > >of
> > > >"centuries old" doctrines of men to wade through?
> > > > I had none until I began reading extra biblical stuff and as soon as > >I
> > > >saw the conflict with the written word I layed it down fast. My
> > > >daughter-in-law has a newly energized hunger for God and she is >asking >me
> > > >about commentaries because we live in a fast food era where we want
> > > >everything yesterday. However, I hesitate because I don't want to >fill
> > > >that God-given hunger with error that will slow her down. Better for > >her
> > > >to see it in God's Word.
> > > >
> > > > And yes, there is a spiritual element included in this metaphor, but > >it
> > > >is actually quite more than spiritual: those who reject Christ are > >doing so
> > > >with their entire being -- mind, body, soul, and spirit. I would like > >to
> > > >quote a verse and then ask you a couple questions. "Then Jesus said >to
> > > >them, 'A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you >have >the
> > > >light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not > >know
> > > >where he is going'" (John 12.35). Do you agree with me that the > >"darkness"
> > > >in which the rebellious man walks is not literal darkness; in other > >words
> > > >he may be walking in daylight, yet still be walking in darkness in
> > > >accordance with this passage? If you agree with me, it is because you > >are
> > > >able to recognize a metaphor in Jesus' statement. "Darkness" here > >refers to
> > > >a state other than literal d arkness. Do you agree with me?
> > > >
> > > > jt: This is not a metaphor either Bill - it is spiritual reality. > >Satan
> > > >and his demons are darkness. God is light and in Him is no darkness >at
> > > >all. When we will not come to the light, or walk in the light - > >darkness
> > > >is there to pursue us. Nothing metaphoric
> > > > about that.
> > > >
> > > > Allow me to quote a portion from the following verse: "While you > >have
> > > >the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." > >Do
> > > >you recognize the metaphorical thrust in these words? Jesus is not > >asking
> > > >these people to worship light as an abstract energy, nor does he want > >them
> > > >to be fire worshiper s or children of the sun; he expects them to > >worship
> > > >instead that which is represented by the word "light." In other >words, >he
> > > >expected them to draw a correct inference from the metaphorical > >language he
> > > >employed. He expected them to pick up on the metaphor and understand >by >it
> > > >that he wants them to believe in him, that they might become his > >followers.
> > > >Do you agree with me?
> > > >
> > > > jt: Jesus Words are not metaphor Bill. They are Spirit and they are
> > > >Life. A biblical metphor is in Psalm 91:4 where it speaks of God's
> > > >feathers and his wings - We know he is not a bird.
> > > >
> > > > This is the same thing which is happening with the verse y ou are > >asking
> > > >me about: "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead." Jesus > >knows
> > > >quite well that he has employed a metaphor in this statement. He >knows >that
> > > >his hearers will realize that dead people cannot bury dead people. > >Hence he
> > > >knows that they will not be able to take his statement literally; >they >will
> > > >have to conclude that the first death is representative of something > >other
> > > >than yet similar to the second death: in other words, they will know >it >is
> > > >a metaphor. And so, what will they conclude that this metaphor is
> > > >representative of? They will conclude that it is representative of > >their
> > > >condition in refusal of him. Yes, this condition includes a spiritual
> > > >aspect, but not only tha t. They were entirely helpless and hopeless > >without
> > > >him; and it was very important for them to draw that conclusion; >hence >they
> > > >needed to realize that he was telling them that in a state of denial, > >they
> > > >were as good as dead, as hopeless and helpless as the guy who was >about >to
> > > >be buried.
> > > >
> > > > jt: You sure make something terribly complicated out of one sentence
> > > >Bill. How would you expect thest ppl to have such a
> > > > wide ranging overview which includes first and second deaths? Jesus > >was
> > > >sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
> > > > remember? God's back-slidden covenant ppl born under the law and > >his
> > > >ministry consisted of travelling around teaching and healing all who > >were
> > > >oppressed of the devil. How would these ppl have refused something > >that
> > > >had not yet been offered?
> > > > John's baptism was one of repentance and Jesus taught Israel about > >the
> > > >Kingdom of God which became available post
> > > > resurrection. judyt
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you >may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > >http://www.InnGlory.org ;
> > >
> > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
> > >
> > >
>
>----------
>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >http://www.InnGlory.org
>
>If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Perry
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:50:32 -0400
>
>
>Do I miss the point? The body, soul, mind and spirit are so integral to >each other as to be without separation. If we are alive , we are alive in >total. If we are dead, we are dead in total. Our bodies will be raised >and reunited with soul mind and spirit (correct?) THEN transformed into a >form we have yet to learn (I John 3:2) "Spiritual death" as a phrase >tends to eliminate from our thinking the body, the mind and perhaps the >spirit or the soul (if there is a difference). >??????????????????????????
>
>JD
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:34:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
>
>
>Bill,
>
> It appears in scripture that there is a point at which one becomes >"spiritually alive". Often, this is referred to as "quickeneing". Check out >these verses:
& gt;
>Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and >sins;
>
>Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together >with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
>
>Colossians 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision >of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all >trespasses;
>
>1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for >the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, >but quickened by the Spirit:
>
>So, we might think of "spiritual death" as being "dead in trespasses and >sins". It is when we come to believe and trust in Jesus (and all that it >implies) that we are "quickened", or gain spiritual life.
>
>How about these verses:
>
>Jo hn 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and >believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come >into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
>
>1 John 3:14 John We know that we have passed from death unto life, because >we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
>
>If we can pass from death unto life if we are not dead first? Not >physically dead, but spiritually dead.
>
>By the way, what difference does it make if I understand this or not? "If >thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in >thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved". >Both of these apply to me. Would you assume that I am saved because of >this?
>
>As for those who are unable to reason and understand the gospel, I believe >that they are not held accountable until they first know right from wrong >and understand that they are sinners, i.e., convicted by the Holy Spirit of >their sin.
>
>Perry
>
> >From: "Bill Taylor" <wmtaylor@plains.net>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
> >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:08:22 -0600
> >
> >Perry wrote > The greater message here is that those who choose not to > >follow Jesus are "spiritually dead". That is, they do not have the Spirit > >of the Lord dwelling in them. The man he chose as an example wanted to > >tarry from following Jesus until his father passed away, thus putting his > >family above Jesus.
> >
> >
> >Well, this is not exactly what I had in mind, Perry; although, I do agree > >with your final statement.
> >
> >Would you mind clarifying your opening comments? Is this how you view > >"spiritual death": those who do not have the Spirit of the Lord dwelling >in >them are spiritually dead, and those who do have the Spirit of the Lord > >dwelling in them are spiritually alive? Was the Spirit of the Lord > >indwelling Jesus' followers prior to his ascension? What do you think: >were >those followers spiritually dead, or were they spiritually alive? Are >all >non-believers spiritually dead -- infants and unborn babies included? >What >ab out the mentally retarded: are they spiritually dead, or do they >have the >Spirit of God indwelling them?
> >
> >Just curious,
> >
> >Bill
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 10:13 PM
> >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
> >
> >
> > > The greater message here is that those who choose not to follow Jesus > >are
> > > "spiritually dead". That is, they do not have the Spirit of the Lord
> > > dwelling in them. The man he chose as an example wanted to tarry from
> > > following Jesus until his father passed away, thus putting his family > >above
> > > Jesus.
> > >
> > > >From: "Bill Taylor" <wmtaylor@plains.net>
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: <[email protected]>
> > > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
> > > >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:33:26 -0600
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Would someone else please step in and help Judy through this? I would > >very
> > > >much appreciate it.
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >Bill
> > > > From: Judy Taylor
> > > >
> > > ; > Bill wrote: I actually don't think we've got that much left to argue
> > > >about. Both you and Judy have said that you do not think of >"spiritual
> > > >death" as literally being dead in the spirit. Hence you are both > >treating
> > > >your concept as a metaphor, and this whether you realize it or not, >and >so
> > > >I don't really have an issue with either of your positions.
> > > >
> > > > jt: Why can't we just call life what God calls it and death what God
> > > >calls it? Why do we have to qualify with all of these advanced
> > > >linguistics?
> > > >
> > > > In response to David's expressed concerns, Judy wrote: This does not
> > > >mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically > >dead -
> > > >it means that if something does not change they will inherit both at > >the
> > > >last day.
> > > >
> > > > And in response to her, you (Izzy) wrote: A "spiritually dead" > >person is
> > > >going to hell when he physically dies. He already doesn't "get it" > >about
> > > >things of the Spirit. And you also wrote to me, If folks in that > >condition
> > > >die to today they are hell-bound. ... It simply defines for us that > >they
> > > >are not actually physically dead yet. These statements treat >"spiritual
> > > >death" in a metaphorical sense and not a literal one.
> > > >
> > > > jt: Sounds to me as though you are evading the point Bill - what
> > > >difference does the word make life is lif e and death is death so far >as >God
> > > >is concerned - now what does He mean by this concept?
> > > >
> > > > You ask in a separate post what the difference is between us? The
> > > >difference is this: I let the word "death" or "dead" supply the > >metaphor
> > > >without adding "spiritual" to it. You add a word and then treat the >two >--
> > > >spiritual + death -- as a metaphor for something else, as you both > >explain
> > > >above.
> > > >
> > > > jt: I have a question. What kind of death is God talking about > >then?
> > > >In the garden Adam died the day he ate from the wrong tree, yet he > >lived
> > > >another 960yrs physically and the whole time he had a working body, a
> > > >conscious soul, and a spirit (albeit one that had lost communion with > >God).
> > > > Since a metaphor is defined as a similitude reduced to a single word > >-
> > > >your definition is in error. God is not using similitude or metaphor > >here
> > > >- When He says "death" he means "death" and since the death Adam
> > > >experienced that day was not physical, nor was it alzheimers (brain >or >soul
> > > >death). What do you suppose it was?
> > > >
> > > > Why do I have a problem with this? Because of that centuries-old
> > > >doctrine of "spiritual death," which literally does refer to one's > >spirit
> > > >as being dead until it is regenerated.
> > > >
> > > > jt: You are not dealing with the truth of scripture then. You ar e
> > > >dealing with some "centuries old doctrine of man"
> > > >
> > > > Neither of you seem to "get it" that "spiritual death" is not > >biblical
> > > >language; it is a doctrine which speaks to biblical concepts; it is a
> > > >synthesis, a conclusion. You have picked up on the language of this
> > > >doctrine, but the concepts that it represents are treated differently > >by
> > > >you than by those who adhere to the classic doctrine.
> > > >
> > > > jt: No Bill - You are the one hamstrung by this doctrine. I am not
> > > >dealing with any such thing and neither is Izzy; the dead burying >their
> > > >dead is not speaking of physical or soulish death since they were >able > ;to
> > > >dig a hole and had presence of mind enough not to let a dead body >just >lay
> > > >around.
> > > >
> > > > Yet, how am I to know that this is what you are doing when I see you
> > > >using the language of that old doctrine? I can't know that you are > >using it
> > > >differently, until after I have been through a very long process with > >you.
> > > >Why not drop the language and then, when it is necessary, explain >your
> > > >concept by using "death" as the metaphor which speaks to your >perceived
> > > >conclusions? At least this way people will not be so likely to
> > > >misunderstand you going in.
> > > >
> > > > jt: Why would Izzy and I assume that everyone we speak to ha s a load > >of
> > > >"centuries old" doctrines of men to wade through?
> > > > I had none until I began reading extra biblical stuff and as soon as > >I
> > > >saw the conflict with the written word I layed it down fast. My
> > > >daughter-in-law has a newly energized hunger for God and she is >asking >me
> > > >about commentaries because we live in a fast food era where we want
> > > >everything yesterday. However, I hesitate because I don't want to >fill
> > > >that God-given hunger with error that will slow her down. Better for > >her
> > > >to see it in God's Word.
> > > >
> > > > And yes, there is a spiritual element included in this metaphor, but > >it
> > > >is actually quite more than spiritual: those who reject Christ are > >doing so
> > > >with their entire being -- mind, body, soul, and spirit. I would like > >to
> > > >quote a verse and then ask you a couple questions. "Then Jesus said >to
> > > >them, 'A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you >have >the
> > > >light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not > >know
> > > >where he is going'" (John 12.35). Do you agree with me that the > >"darkness"
> > > >in which the rebellious man walks is not literal darkness; in other > >words
> > > >he may be walking in daylight, yet still be walking in darkness in
> > > >accordance with this passage? If you agree with me, it is because you > >are
> > > >able to recognize a metaphor in Jesus' statement. "Darkness" here > >refers to
> > > >a state other than literal d arkness. Do you agree with me?
> > > >
> > > > jt: This is not a metaphor either Bill - it is spiritual reality. > >Satan
> > > >and his demons are darkness. God is light and in Him is no darkness >at
> > > >all. When we will not come to the light, or walk in the light - > >darkness
> > > >is there to pursue us. Nothing metaphoric
> > > > about that.
> > > >
> > > > Allow me to quote a portion from the following verse: "While you > >have
> > > >the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." > >Do
> > > >you recognize the metaphorical thrust in these words? Jesus is not > >asking
> > > >these people to worship light as an abstract energy, nor does he want > >them
> > > >to be fire worshiper s or children of the sun; he expects them to > >worship
> > > >instead that which is represented by the word "light." In other >words, >he
> > > >expected them to draw a correct inference from the metaphorical > >language he
> > > >employed. He expected them to pick up on the metaphor and understand >by >it
> > > >that he wants them to believe in him, that they might become his > >followers.
> > > >Do you agree with me?
> > > >
> > > > jt: Jesus Words are not metaphor Bill. They are Spirit and they are
> > > >Life. A biblical metphor is in Psalm 91:4 where it speaks of God's
> > > >feathers and his wings - We know he is not a bird.
> > > >
> > > > This is the same thing which is happening with the verse y ou are > >asking
> > > >me about: "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead." Jesus > >knows
> > > >quite well that he has employed a metaphor in this statement. He >knows >that
> > > >his hearers will realize that dead people cannot bury dead people. > >Hence he
> > > >knows that they will not be able to take his statement literally; >they >will
> > > >have to conclude that the first death is representative of something > >other
> > > >than yet similar to the second death: in other words, they will know >it >is
> > > >a metaphor. And so, what will they conclude that this metaphor is
> > > >representative of? They will conclude that it is representative of > >their
> > > >condition in refusal of him. Yes, this condition includes a spiritual
> > > >aspect, but not only tha t. They were entirely helpless and hopeless > >without
> > > >him; and it was very important for them to draw that conclusion; >hence >they
> > > >needed to realize that he was telling them that in a state of denial, > >they
> > > >were as good as dead, as hopeless and helpless as the guy who was >about >to
> > > >be buried.
> > > >
> > > > jt: You sure make something terribly complicated out of one sentence
> > > >Bill. How would you expect thest ppl to have such a
> > > > wide ranging overview which includes first and second deaths? Jesus > >was
> > > >sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
> > > > remember? God's back-slidden covenant ppl born under the law and > >his
> > > >ministry consisted of travelling around teaching and healing all who > >were
> > > >oppressed of the devil. How would these ppl have refused something > >that
> > > >had not yet been offered?
> > > > John's baptism was one of repentance and Jesus taught Israel about > >the
> > > >Kingdom of God which became available post
> > > > resurrection. judyt
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you >may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > >http://www.InnGlory.org ;
> > >
> > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
> > >
> > >
>
>----------
>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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