Man, you may be talking to fast for me. I am following along,
here, and did not intend my comments below to be anything other than a
long question to Bill (especially) Your questions were good, as
well.
Eternal whatever is something that I am still working on.
Right now, I see some raised to
eternal life and others to destruction. Heaven is the reasonable
conclusion to the life lived by a believer. Hell (death and
destruction) is the reasonable conclusion to a life lived in rejection of all
that God has offered to the person. The scriptures below, seem to
contrast quickening (life) to death. Why is the prefix "spiritual"
not applied -- especially sense there was such a word as
"spiritual" avaiable to the writers? I do know that
those who do not follow the way of the Lord are "dead already."
John, will everyone be
raised to eternal life? And, will all have the same state? If so, then why is
salvation desirable? What is a term we can use while one is still alive to
indicate whether they will be saved or not? how about "spiritually alive"
(saved) or "spiritually dead" (not
saved)?
Perry
>From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Reply-To:
[email protected] >To:
[email protected] >Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:50:32
-0400
>
>
>Do I miss the point? The body,
soul, mind and spirit are so integral to >each other as to be without
separation. If we are alive , we are alive in >total. If we are dead, we
are dead in total. Our bodies will be raised >and reunited with soul mind
and spirit (correct?) THEN transformed into a >form we have yet to learn (I
John 3:2) "Spiritual death" as a phrase >tends to eliminate from our
thinking the body, the mind and perhaps the >spirit or the soul (if there
is a difference).
>??????????????????????????
>
>
JD >
>
>-----Original
Message-----
>From: Charles Perry Locke <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To:
[email protected] >Sent:
Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:34:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Spiritual
death
>
>
>Bill,
>
>
It appears in scripture that there is a point at which one becomes
>"spiritually alive". Often, this is referred to as "
quickeneing". Check out >these verses:
&
gt;
>Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in
trespasses and >sins;
>
>Ephesians 2:5 - Even when
we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together >with Christ, (by grace ye
are saved;)
>
>
Colossians 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the
uncircumcision >of your flesh, hath he
quickened together with him, having forgiven you all
>trespasses;
>
>1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath
once suffered for sins, the just for >the unjust, that he might bring us to
God, being put to death in the flesh, >but quickened by the
Spirit:
>
>So, we might think of "spiritual death" as
being "dead in trespasses and >sins". It is when we come to believe and
trust in Jesus (and all that it >implies) that we are "quickened", or gain
spiritual life.
>
>How about these
verses:
>
>Jo hn 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto
you, He that
heareth my word, and
>
believeth on him that sent me, hath
everlasting life, and shall not come >into condemnation; but is passed from
death unto life.
>
>1 John 3:14 John We know that we
have passed from death unto life, because >we love the brethren. He that
loveth not his brother
abideth in death.
>
>If
we can pass from death unto life if we are not dead first? Not >physically
dead, but spiritually dead.
>
>By the way, what
difference does it make if I understand this or not? "If >thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and
shalt believe in >
thine heart that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou
shalt be saved". >Both of
these apply to me. Would you assume that I am saved because of
>this?
>
>As for those who are unable to reason and
understand the gospel, I believe >that they are not held accountable until
they first know right from wrong >and understand that they are sinners,
i.e., convicted by the Holy Spirit of >their
sin.
>
>Perry
>
> >From:
"Bill Taylor" <wmtaylor@plains.net>
>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>
>To: <[email protected]>
>
>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
> >Date: Mon, 25
Jul 2005 23:08:22 -0600
> >
> >Perry wrote >
The greater message here is that those who choose not to > >follow Jesus
are "spiritually dead". That is, they do not have the Spirit > >of the
Lord dwelling in them. The man he chose as an example wanted to > >tarry
from following Jesus until his father passed away, thus putting his >
>family above Jesus.
> >
> >
>
>Well, this is not exactly what I had in mind, Perry; although, I do agree
> >with your final statement.
> >
> >Would
you mind clarifying your opening comments? Is this how you view >
>"spiritual death": those who do not have the Spirit of the Lord dwelling
>in >them are spiritually dead, and those who do have the Spirit of the
Lord > >dwelling in them are spiritually alive? Was the Spirit of the
Lord > >indwelling Jesus' followers
prior to his ascension? What do you think: >were >those followers
spiritually dead, or were they spiritually alive? Are >all
>non-believers spiritually dead -- infants and unborn babies included?
>What >ab out the mentally retarded: are they spiritually dead, or do
they >have the >Spirit of God indwelling them?
> >
> >Just
curious,
> >
> >Bill
> >-----
Original Message -----
> >From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>To: <[email protected]>
>
>Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 10:13 PM
> >Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Spiritual death
> >
>
>
> > > The greater message here is that those who choose
not to follow Jesus > >are
> > > "spiritually dead".
That is, they do not have the Spirit of the Lord
> > >
dwelling in them. The man he chose as an example wanted to tarry
from
> > > following Jesus until his father passed away,
thus putting his family > >above
> > >
Jesus.
> > >
> > > >From: "Bill Taylor"
<wmtaylor@plains.net>
> > > >Reply-To:
[email protected]
>
> > >To: <[email protected]>
>
> > >Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
> > >
>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:33:26 -0600
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > >Would someone
else please step in and help Judy through this? I would >
>very
> > > >much appreciate it.
> >
> >
> > > >Thanks,
> > >
>
> > > >Bill
> > > > From: Judy
Taylor
> > > >
> > > ; > Bill wrote:
I actually don't think we've got that much left to argue
> >
> >about. Both you and Judy have said that you do not think of
>"spiritual
> > > >death" as literally being dead in
the spirit. Hence you are both > >treating
> > >
>your concept as a metaphor, and this whether you realize it or not,
>and >so
> > > >I don't really have an issue with
either of your positions.
> > > >
> > >
> jt: Why can't we just call life what
God calls it and death what God
> > > >calls it? Why do
we have to qualify with all of these advanced
> > >
>linguistics?
> > > >
> > > > In
response to David's expressed concerns, Judy wrote: This does
not
> > > >mean that their spirit is literally dead or
that they are physically > >dead -
> > > >it means
that if something does not change they will inherit both at >
>the
> > > >last day.
> > >
>
> > > > And in response to her, you (Izzy) wrote: A "spiritually dead" >
>person is
> > > >going to hell when he physically
dies. He already doesn't "get it" > >about
> > >
>things of the Spirit. And you also wrote to me, If folks in that >
>condition
> > > >die to today they are hell-bound.
... It simply defines for us that > >they
> > >
>are not actually physically dead yet. These statements treat
>"spiritual
> > > >death" in a metaphorical sense and
not a literal one.
> > > >
> > > >
jt: Sounds to me as though you are evading
the point Bill - what
> > > >difference does the word
make life is lif e and death is death so far >as >God
> >
> >is concerned - now what does He mean by this concept?
>
> > >
> > > > You ask in a separate post what
the difference is between us? The
> > > >difference is
this: I let the word "death" or "dead" supply the >
>metaphor
> > > >without adding "spiritual" to it. You
add a word and then treat the >two >--
> > >
>spiritual + death -- as a metaphor for something else, as you both >
>explain
> > > >above.
> > >
>
> > > > jt: I
have a question. What kind of death is God talking about >
>then?
> > > >In the garden Adam died the day he ate
from the wrong tree, yet he > >lived
> > > >another
960yrs physically and the whole time he had a working body, a
>
> > >conscious soul, and a spirit (albeit one that had lost communion
with > >God).
> > > > Since a metaphor is defined
as a similitude reduced to a single word > >-
> > >
>your definition is in error. God is not using similitude or metaphor >
>here
> > > >- When He says "death" he means "death"
and since the death Adam
> > > >experienced that day was
not physical, nor was it alzheimers (brain
>or >soul
> > > >death). What do you suppose it
was?
> > > >
> > > > Why do I have a
problem with this? Because of that centuries-old
> > >
>doctrine of "spiritual death," which literally does refer to one's >
>spirit
> > > >as being dead until it is
regenerated.
> > > >
> > > > jt: You are not dealing with the truth of
scripture then. You ar e
> > > >dealing with some
"centuries old doctrine of man"
> > > >
>
> > > Neither of you seem to "get it" that "spiritual death" is not
> >biblical
> > > >language; it is a doctrine which
speaks to biblical concepts; it is a
> > > >synthesis, a
conclusion. You have picked up on the language of this
> > >
>doctrine, but the concepts that it represents are treated differently >
>by
> > > >you than by those who adhere to the classic
doctrine.
> > > >
> > > > jt: No Bill - You are the one hamstrung by this
doctrine. I am not
> > > >dealing with any such thing and
neither is Izzy; the dead burying
>their
> > > >dead is not speaking of physical or
soulish death since they were >able
> ;to
> > > >dig a hole and had presence of mind
enough not to let a dead body >just >lay
> > >
>around.
> > > >
> > > > Yet, how
am I to know that this is what you are doing when I see you
> >
> >using the language of that old doctrine? I can't know that you are
> >using it
> > > >differently, until after I have
been through a very long process with > >you.
> > >
>Why not drop the language and then, when it is necessary, explain
>your
> > > >concept by using "death" as the metaphor
which speaks to your >perceived
> > > >conclusions? At
least this way people will not be so likely to
> > >
>misunderstand you going in.
> > > >
>
> > > jt: Why would Izzy and I assume that everyone we speak to ha s
a load > >of
> > > >"centuries old" doctrines of
men to wade through?
> > > > I had none until I began
reading extra biblical stuff and as soon as > >I
> > >
>saw the conflict with the written word I layed it down fast. My
> > >
>daughter-in-law has a newly energized hunger for God and she is >asking
>me
> > > >about commentaries because we live in a
fast food era where we want
> > > >everything yesterday.
However, I hesitate because I don't want to >fill
> > >
>that God-given hunger with error that will slow her down. Better for >
>her
> > > >to see it in God's Word.
>
> > >
> > > > And yes, there is a spiritual
element included in this metaphor, but > >it
> > >
>is actually quite more than spiritual: those who reject Christ are >
>doing so
> > > >with their entire being -- mind,
body, soul, and spirit. I would like > >to
> > >
>quote a verse and then ask you a couple questions. "Then Jesus said
>to
> > > >them, 'A little while longer the light is
with you. Walk while you >have >the
> > > >light,
lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not >
>know
> > > >where he is going'" (John 12.35). Do you
agree with me that the > >"darkness"
> > > >in
which the rebellious man walks is not literal darkness; in other >
>words
> > > >he may be walking in daylight, yet still
be walking in darkness in
> > > >accordance with this
passage? If you agree with me, it is because you > >are
>
> > >able to recognize a metaphor in Jesus' statement. "Darkness"
here > >refers to
> > > >a state other than literal
d arkness. Do you agree with me?
> > > >
>
> > > jt: This is not a metaphor
either Bill - it is spiritual reality. > >Satan
> > >
>and his demons are darkness. God is light and in Him is no darkness
>at
> > > >all. When we will not come to the light, or
walk in the light - > >darkness
> > > >is there to
pursue us. Nothing metaphoric
> > > > about
that.
> > > >
> > > > Allow me to
quote a portion from the following verse: "While you >
>have
> > > >the light, believe in the light, that you
may become sons of light." > >Do
> > > >you
recognize the metaphorical thrust in these words? Jesus is not >
>asking
> > > >these people to worship light as an
abstract energy, nor does he want > >them
> > > >to
be fire worshiper s or children of the sun; he expects them to >
>worship
> > > >instead that which is represented by
the word "light." In other >words, >he
> > >
>expected them to draw a correct inference from the metaphorical >
>language he
> > > >employed. He expected them to pick
up on the metaphor and understand >by >it
> > >
>that he wants them to believe in him, that they might become his >
>followers.
> > > >Do you agree with me?
>
> > >
> > > > jt: Jesus Words are not metaphor Bill. They are Spirit and they
are
> > > >Life. A biblical metphor is in Psalm 91:4 where it speaks of God's
>
> > >feathers and his wings - We know he is not a bird.
>
> > >
> > > > This is the same thing which is
happening with the verse y ou are > >asking
> > >
>me about: "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead." Jesus >
>knows
> > > >quite well that he has employed a
metaphor in this statement. He >knows >that
> > >
>his hearers will realize that dead people cannot bury dead people. >
>Hence he
> > > >knows that they will not be able to
take his statement literally; >they >will
> > >
>have to conclude that the first death is representative of something >
>other
> > > >than yet similar to the second death: in
other words, they will know >it >is
> > > >a
metaphor. And so, what will they conclude that this metaphor is
>
> > >representative of? They will conclude that it is representative
of > >their
> > > >condition in refusal of him.
Yes, this condition includes a spiritual
> > > >aspect,
but not only tha t. They were entirely helpless and hopeless >
>without
> > > >him; and it was very important for
them to draw that conclusion; >hence >they
> > >
>needed to realize that he was telling them that in a state of denial, >
>they
> > > >were as good as dead, as hopeless and
helpless as the guy who was >about >to
> > > >be
buried.
> > > >
> > > > jt: You sure make something terribly complicated
out of one sentence
> > > >Bill. How would you expect
thest ppl to have such a
> > > > wide ranging
overview which includes first and second deaths? Jesus >
>was
> > > >sent to the lost sheep of the house of
Israel
> > > > remember? God's back-slidden covenant ppl
born under the law and > >his
> > > >ministry
consisted of travelling around teaching
and healing all who > >were
> > > >oppressed of the
devil. How would these ppl have refused
something > >that
> > > >had not yet been
offered?
> > > > John's baptism was one of repentance and
Jesus taught Israel about > >the
> > > >Kingdom of
God which became available post
> > > > resurrection.
judyt
> >
>
> > >
> > > ----------
>
> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
>may >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > >http://www.InnGlory.org ;
> >
>
> > > If you do not want to receive posts from this
list, send an email to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
and you will be unsubscribed. If you have
a > >friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and
he will be subscribed.
> > >
> >
>
>
>----------
>"Let your speech be
always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may >know how you ought to
answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) >http://www.InnGlory.org
>
>If you do
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----------
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