RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

[ShieldsFamily]

Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the obvious you quit playing.  Oh, well........      iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question.   God's blessings,   Bill   By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it. ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death My view is more correctly this: “spiritual death” is simply the pre-“quickened” (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person.  They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit.  Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men.  They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts.  It is literal in that it is true.  But it is not final until actual physical death.  Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my view—not to convince you.  I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a “biblical term” that expresses man’s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition?  izzy   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death   No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man"; and secondly that it was inaccurate -- if what you are actually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death.   Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death          BT:  Paul tells us that Christ re-gathered all things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those “nonbiblical” words, Bill. I had said something the other day in reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context. Yes, we sometimes use non-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it.      Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, since this whole discussion got started because you objected to those of us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term.  So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right?   You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had been accused of "touting" Barth and Torrance, and I was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs -- which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming instead that he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; that it "is right there in Genesis." Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on my end of the pool, 'cause I'm not the hypocrite on this one.    Izzy responds: So you really don't object, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term,  if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill?