-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:31:00 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Salvation from Judgment
JD where do you get this idea?. Noone is saved from 'judgment' Those who are saved are saved from the wrath of God but everyone undergoes judgment. For the Believer it is the Judgment Seat of Christ and everyone will appear at the Great White Throne Judgment - both righteous and wicked.
On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:48:24 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
1. Heb 2:2-3 present to the reader of long ago, the certainty of an accounting of our transgressions and disobedience and the occurring "just reward" (death !!!). When Paul (?) gives admonition against neglecting "so great a salvation," he is encouraging the reader to pursue that which will avoid the accounting of our transgressions and disobedience. "Salvation" prevents judgment.jt: Not so JD, it is "being saved from the wrath of God" which is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.You go outside the stated text to rebut the stated conclusion. Verse 3 "how shall we escape if we neglect" has verse 2 in mind, Judy. How shall we escape what, Judy? Our reward for our transgressions and disobedience. Such a judgmental consideration is given escape in Christ. Heb 2:2-3 is simply saying this: we can either be judged in our transgressions and disobedience or we can be saved from that judgment.2. Col 1:22 gives us the purpose of reconciliation: "to present you holy, blameless and above reproach in His sight." The biblical word (a Greek word [of course} translated "blameless" in this passage means "ethically, faultless, unblamable." In the LXX, it is the used of a perfect sacrifice and carries with it the sense of "the absence of anything amiss." In this word, alone, we are above or without judgment because IN HIS SIGHT we are found to be "without anything amiss."jt: So JD when you use these qualifiers are you saying that we don't have to be this in 'reality?' Just ethically because Jesus is a perfect sacrifice and because God doesn't see things as they really are?Yes. Another way of looking at it is this: Christ is our reality. but I do not think you understand this statement.This is something that happens immediately and perpetually. The conditional phrase in v 23 is not a condition of doubt or of the possibility of failure. Rather, it continues the positive statement of verse 22&nb sp; -- we are holy, blameless and above reproach as we continue in the faith [of Christ], not moving away from the hope offered in that faith.jt: My Bible says "IF" which is a conditional word JD, and if is a word that denotes the possibility of failure. Whyare you wanting to cut this word out of your Bible or change it to as?"If" in association with participle phrases (two of them in this text) is not conditional in the way you think. Your view has the text saying that In His sight, we holy, blameless and above reproach if we act out holy, blameless and above reproach.If we read this otherwise, we have this rather unusual reading : He (Christ) presents you holy, blameless and above reproach so long as you are holy, blameless and above reproach. This is how the passage (verses 22,23) reads if translated by a works salvationist.jt: Apparently it must have been written by a "works salvationist" JD because it is in there in the original. Why do we need Christ, Judy? With your theology, it is not apparent.3. Romans 3:24 "being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."Romans 3:28 "Therefore we concluded that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. "In the reading of these two passages, we have the fact of our salvation - a salvation based upon the redemptive act of Christ Jesus and justification by faith, therefore, apart from obedience (and disobedience, I might add ) to the law.jt: Justified depends on what one's faith is invested in. Truth is one thing, the lie is another. Obedience to the Levitical law would be pointless since it was becoming obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). As for God's moral law, this is another matter entirely. Why would He bother to write it on your heart if it was unimportant and unnecessary JD? Why is this part of the New Covenant? (Jer 31:31, Heb 8:9-13) You associate a dualism to the Mosaic Law that is certainly not in evidence in Acts 15. My faith is vested in Christ. Your's is vested in your ability to perform correctly.Our salvation is already a reality and is based on nothing that we have done of our own effort. How could it be otherwise in view of the fact that our salvation occurs in this life!!!!! Either Christ secured our salvation in the redemptive act and apart from any consideration of the application of law, or He did not. And if we are saved in this life, it must be a salvation apart from the deeds of the law. If it is now, immediate and secure, it cannot involve the coniseration of a law whatsoever !!!!!!!!!!!!! In other words -- I am saved BEFORE I go to court!!jt: Only in your own head JD. Of course you know you will have to cut all of 1 John out of your Bible don't you?I mean John must not have known about the "incarnational" gospel because he wrote things like "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning... V.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest; Whoever does not PRACTICE righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:7-10) First, it is John who gives us this "incarnational" gospel. He is the one who concludes "Son of God" presents Jesus as equal to being God (John 5:18). I cut nothing out of the Bible. To the degree that we practice righteousness, we are righteous..... but we are not judged in this attempt. Thus, the necessity of accepting faith in exchange for righteousness. If we could be fully and completely righteous, this exchange of faith for righteousness would not be necessary.Lest we forget, Romans 3:10-18 finds Paul making the point that "there is none who is righteous," that we are all guilty (3:19) if judged by law (that is what "guilty" means, is it not -- that we have been found guilty in the sight of the law?). To be judged by the law is to be found guilty !! Shall we neglect a salvation that delivers us from this circumstance?jt: Are you going to have a sword fight in the day of the Lord JD and pit Romans 3 against 1 John 3?. Tell the Lord you didn't have to PRACTICE righteousness because Romans 3 said His law had been done away with so it couldn't judge you and anyway that is just for "works righteousness" folk? It is not what I do that is the problem so much as what I do not accomplish --- And you are the one who pits scripture against scripture, not I.Look what you do, in this case ----- you ignore Romans 3 for the sake of your opinion regarding I John 3 !!!! Incredible.Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for [purposes] righteousness to everyone who believes.and Romans 10:11 "whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."jt: Believing on is present progressive JD and implies corresponding action - same as "abiding" The righteous judgment of God is that "Every man will be rewarded according to what HE has done" Nothing "progressive" about it - if you mean that we move from believing to works. Whoever "believes" is a present participle. The primary function of a participle verb is that of conveyance -- how we get there, how we accomplish a thing. In this verse, "believes" translates out in the same way a present indicative would "whoever is believing." The difference is this: as a participle, we have Paul giving us the mechanism by which our shamelessness is accomplished - by believing.4> Gal. 3:35 "But after faith has come, we are no longer under law [a tutor]." No law -- no judgment !!!!jt: You wish..... Do you also believe in the tooth fairy JD?Judgment is not possible without law, Judy. Take speeding definitions from the law of the day, and we have no violation if we are seen driving 130 mph !! Galatians 3:25 tells us that the law has been removed (as a factor of judgment)5. Jere 31:34 Under this new covenat - a covenant entirely different from the Mosaical Law, God gives this promise "........... I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more."jt: Why only post part of it JD? What about "I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts and I will be their God and they shall be my people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying "know the Lord," for they shall all know Me. So JD, to know Him is to love and serve Him which implies obedience to the Law He has written in our hearts - why else would He put it there? Specifically, what is this law written on our hearts, Judy? What do you think you are preserving? And, if you are going to quote the whole passage, why did you leave off the part that says "not similar to the covenant that I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt' ?Conclusion ------------ those in Christ are not judged except as being in Christ. Those who follow not Christ are judged already (you supply the scripture.) JDjt: Rather .. Those who walk after the Spirit of Christ and refuse to fulfill the lust of the flesh will be found in Him.WARNING!! Don't be found in that Day holding a lie in your right hand and trusting in it. We need to LOVE the truth lest God Himself send strong delusion that we might believe the lie.
