[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
For instance, I'm sure Blaine understands just as well as any TTer, that if I were to start my own
church tomorrow, and convert one person to believe as I do with in a
year, and then 2 more next year, and then 4 more the following
year.....which should not be too difficult in these weird
times......that it would be relatively easy for my church to have an
annual growth rate of 100%, which would far exceed virtually any
modestly sized church in the world. I could probably get numbers like
that for a dozen years or so. But that certainly would not be an
indication that I've got the true church. You have made your
point. It is funny to me that I could misunderstand Blaine's comments but I do not
misunderstand these !!
DAVEH: That's because I was specifically addressing your
understanding of Blaine's comments, and Blaine was addressing another
point that Kevin had made (in relation to JS's prophecies) when he made
the comments about the growth of the LDS Church. If you had understood
the context of why Blaine said what he did, you probably would not have
misinterpreted them.
BTW.........Look at the subject line of this thread. I assume
Kevin penned it, no doubt - he enjoys
treating others as "the enemy" but could be wrong.
Anyway, it reflects an attitude that I think Kevin would like other TTers to believe. Why do you suppose
he would want to foster this lie? And....how many TTers (percentage wise) do you think
he has convinced that the LDS Church now has a zero growth rate? Not one TT'er who
actually thinks.
DAVEH: Perry has struck me as a thinking person at times, yet he
apparently is willing to buy into Kevin's argument. As such, I see him
as blinded by having his own ax to grind though.
Have you considered that Blaine may have posted the things he did
to counter some of the stuff Kevin posts, rather than to make an
argument that the LDS Church is true because of its size and growth
rate?
Actually, I did not. Good point.
DAVEH: As Blaine's comments I posted to TT indicate, that is exactly
what happened.
FWIW....I think LDS folks have a different
understanding of the term Kingdom of God than you, John. That
does not mean we think your view
is all screwed up, but rather that our
view is different because we have a different understanding based on
latter-day revelation. Yes, but I do
not understand why latter day revelation should
be different from the actual First Church teachings.
DAVEH: I would say there are two possibilities to explain that.
First, perhaps your view of the First
Church teachings are skewed. I don't say that to
offend, but just something to explore. Since I haven't studied the
topic, I really don't know...so just offer it as conjecture. Second,
as you may know, the LDS folks have a lot of their own terms and
definitions that describe things that are meaningful to them, but may
not be as meaningful to others who do not subscribe to latter-day
revelation.
Regarding your comment.......
I see many within orthodoxy extending
the right hand of fellowship and willing t o consider this churc
h as a denomination of the Larger
Church. I do not see the same consideration coming from the Mormon
Church.
............Interestingly I see it as exactly the opposite. As I see
it, my experience in TT
parallels how well the LDS
Church fits into the Protestant world. Perspective, DH,
perspective !!
DAVEH: LOL........though I'm not sure it is a laughing matter.
Personally, I've rarely seen Protestants folks working shoulder to
shoulder with LDS folks. A few years ago, our Ward invited the other
churches in our community to join us for a community work day in our
city. (Once a year, we devote a Saturday to cleaning up around the
city....one year we weeded the cemetery, another we weeded and barked
the high school, another the park...etc.) While we had a fair number
(6 dozen or so, if my memory serves correctly) of LDS folks turn out,
strangely to me, not one Protestant joined us. I suppose that could be
explained though...maybe the ministers contacted did not pass the info
on to their congregations, for fear that some of their flock might join
the LDS Church....I just don't know the reason.
I do know of one instance locally that (at my suggestion) my Mom's
Ward offered to assist a local Bible Church (the one I attended as a
child) fix some damage to their entryway that was caused by a car going
off the highway, and the offer was rejected. I believe that was a case
where the offer was not turned away due to our religious differences
though, but rather I think the pastor (who is an old friend) wanted the
car owner's insurance to do the job.
While I have no other personal knowledge of other faiths ask our
help, or inviting us to join them as a congregation in a project of
some kind, I have heard of instances in Utah where the LDS Church has
come to the aid of other denominations in the community that needed
assistance of some kind.
Regarding your comment.......
My concern is this: that these words
indicated that Mormonism considers itself the ONLY (true)
Christians.
.............I simply don't know why you would get that impression from
what either Blaine or I have posted. In fact, I think I have said that
is not correct when it has come up before in TT.
DH
-- I must confess that have ignored much of your discussion with deegan,
until recently. Because of deegan's
willingness to cloud the issue (any issue) with comments of bias and
half truths (he has done this with me), I have little confidence in
what he has to say.
But, you do not believe that the Mormon Church teaches
that it is only (true) Church?
DAVEH: No John, that is not correct. FTR....I do firmly believe The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only True Church
on the earth today. And, it so viewed by itself.
Could be, however -- remembering the recent exchanges between
your leadership and some in the orthodox community.
I found your comment........
DAVEH:
Such the RCC folks believe.
They just don't quite understand why you (Protestants) felt the need to
leave the nest.
It had to do with grace verses
works salvationism.
......to be really interesting, John. I would have thought your main disagreement with them to be
based on the authority. The RCC
folks believe in a priesthood
authority of the leadership, whereas I understand the Protestants to
believe the authority is in the eyes of the believer. To me, that
pretty much trumps the grace vs
salvation distraction. IMO, one has to do with the essence of
the gospel message, the other (authority) does not.
DAVEH: Perhaps I see it as a twofold proposition. First you have the gospel message, and then you've got
the methodology of sharing that message. For one such as myself that
believes works are an important part of salvation, the means of
delivery takes on a greater significance.
Anyway.......I believe the Bible predicts the Apostasy and
Restoration, and as I see it the LDS
Church fulfills that need...so to speak. But discussing it under this
thread is a bit of a tangent, so if you want to chat about it
more....let's start a new piece of paper and discuss it under a new
subject heading. I'll leave it up to you to instigate the discussion
as I'm sure Perry will find a reason to complain IF I introduce the
topic. :-) Yes. I really think we have spent entirely too much
time over this growth issue. I mean, year after year, deegan has probably gotten larger and larger - sure doesn't mean
HE is right !!
JD
DAVEH: Yeah....I think Kevin is a very sincere person who truly
believes he is doing the work of the Lord. But, IF he is right, then
it seems to me that folks like you are wrong. And, IF you are right,
then it would seem as though he is wrong. Perhaps that is why I am
more comfortable in a religion that is based on proper authority from
the Lord.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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