Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Christ

[Judy Taylor]

 

 

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:12:05 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Your real disagreement with DM on this "sinful flesh" issues is your belief in original sin, i.e. 

 

Being born into this world as the Son of God by definition exonerates Him

from flesh that has been trained in ungodliness and unrighteousness for

generation upon generation.. 

 

 

jt: So how does what I wrote above equate with "original sin?"  I don't use that term

It is the "death" that reigned from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned.

What do you call that JD?  (Romans 5:14,17)  How did they get dead?  Sin may not have

been imputed because there was no law yet but they died didn't they?

 

The Lexical definition includes "to become like and thus to become a thing,"

a blending of thoughts,"  "well-nigh to equality"   (Thayer);  "to be made like, to become like"  

(Liddell and Scott  -- and this is significant because L & S is a study of the common greek

and not just the 5400 or 5600 words of the NT.) 

 

jt: I'm sure JD that if you go through enough Greek studies you will find one that says

what you want it to say. 

 

To argue that He became like sinful flesh is to say that took on the same potential failings

but without failing.   He could not be tempted (as God on Earth) if he had not accepted

the form of sinful flesh.  JD

 

jt: I don't know if this comes as news to you or not JD but Jesus did not overcome

by way of His human flesh - He overcame a spiritual enemy by the power of the Spirit

He only did what He first saw the Father doing, and said what He heard from the Father.

and He was obedient to the point of death, later being justified or perfected in the spirit. 

So why the big deal over His flesh??

 

 

From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
Judy wrote: He tasted all of this during that three hours of darkness on the cross. 

David.  He was not walking around constantly pushing and straining against a

rebellious and deceitful heart along with the inherited iniquity of his fathers.

 

I think you use way too much hyperbole here.  He put his flesh to death daily

just like we do who walk in the spirit of Christ.  It is not a constant pushing

and straining against a rebellious and deceitful heart.  Is that how you would

characterize your every day life?

 

jt: Being born into this world as the Son of God by definition exonerates Him

from flesh that has been trained in ungodliness and unrighteousness for

generation upon generation.

 

If you read Isaiah 53:3 (in the original language), you will see that he
tasted sickness before that last three hours.  Your beliefs may not be
Docetism exactly, but they have that leaning with all this emphasis on his
victory over sin only taking place on the cross.

 

jt:  Can we please leave all the 'isms out of this?  So now I must understand

Hebrew to be able to understand Isa 53:3?  Being despised, rejected by men,

and aquainted with grief does not spell sickness to me.  Also since sickness

is a curse that comes on men when they break God's Law  - how does this figure? 

God could bless his Covenant ppl Israel and keep them healthy for 40yrs when

they walked where they should but Jesus who is sent for a Covenant to the ppl

(Isa 42;6) has to be sick?  Makes no sense any way one looks at it.

 

Judy wrote: The seed of Abraham and David is their spiritual seed David; it

does not have to do with the old Adamic flesh nature at all

 

Where did you get this idea from?  Somebody forgot to tell the apostle
Matthew this bit of information.  Read Matthew 1:1 ff.

 

jt: Matthew 1:1 is a genealogy of 14 generations from Adam to Jesus, so??

Everyone who has ever been born from Adam to Jesus are not saved are

they?

 

Judy wrote: Sanctification for us is a lifetime affair; it was not so for Him.

 

What does the following passage mean?

Hebrews 5:8-9
(8) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he
suffered;
(9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto
all them that obey him;

 

jt: It means He willingly suffered the cross despising the shame for the joy

that was set before Him even though his flesh would have preferred that this

cup pass from Him and He prayed about it with loud cryings.

 

Judy wrote: If it were He would not have been accepted as a sacrifice and

who would have been a sacrifice before God for Him?

 

He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice if he was not human like the
rest of us.  If he were not in the likeness of sinful flesh, that would have
been a problem.

 

jt: Likeness is one thing - actual sinful flesh is something else. We need

some discernment here - between clean and unclean.  Sin is unclean.

 

Judy wrote: Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit
or don't you believe in the virgin birth either David?

 

Yes, I believe the virgin birth, but being born filled with the Spirit from
the womb is spoken about concerning John the Baptist.  Jesus was filled with
the Spirit at his baptism.  My point is that your argument is a non
sequitur.  You are grasping for whatever you can.

 

jt: Jesus was anointed for ministry at his Baptism. It was a priestly washing

and anointing for ministry to fulfill all righteousness which had nothing to do with

sin.

 

David Miller wrote: Are you going to argue based upon this that John the Baptist

also was born with a flesh that lacked the sinful nature?

 

No, why are you making a "straw man"

 

Then drop the argument that the Spirit's presence in Jesus' life indicates
that he did not come in the likeness of sinful flesh.

 

Judy wrote: John thought he should be set apart David and so did all of the men

and Mary who fell at his feet and worshipped Him.  I've not met anyone in sinful flesh

so far who inspires God's ppl to want to do that.

 

Well, I've seen it, and Scriptures speak about Paul and Barnabas having that
effect on people too.  Jesus will be the only one who truly deserves such.

 

jt: Ppl who fall at the feet of mere men have to be walking in ignorance. Paul and

Barnabus were dealing with pagan idol worshippers. Ppl who know God don't

do this.  Jesus however, accepted worship and rightfully so.

 

Judy wrote: No I am not denying John 14:12; I believe it is possible for born again

spirit filled men, who have reckoned the old man dead and who walk in newness

of life and obedience to Jesus to do His works until He returns but I don't believe

any one man will do everything Jesus did for the simple reason that we each have

a measure and He walked in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. No matter which way

you spin it He is not exactly like us.  He is God.  We are flesh.

 

You say, "He is not exactly like us.  He is God.  We are flesh."

 

The Scriptures are very clear that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

 

jt: I don't deny He came in the flesh but now today He is justified in the Spirit

and has ascended; He sits at the RH of the Father in heaven in a transformed

body until He returns to judge the quick and the dead.

 

2 John 1:7
(7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

1 John 4:2-3
(2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
(3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the
flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have
heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

jt: Note that neither of the above adds "sinful" before flesh....

Judy wrote: ... I don't think we should be carried away with strange doctrines ...

 

The strange doctrine is the one that says Jesus Christ did not come in the
flesh.  I may not be able to convince you, but I will continue to stick with
what the Bible teaches on this subject.

 

jt: Noone - least of all me - is saying Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh.

I am saying He did not come in "sinful" flesh which is your claim .... I would

rather not add this dimension to the plain reading of the text.

 

judyt