I once had a professor (from my days at RTS) tell me that it was a thousand years after the death of Christ before a true word was uttered concerning the atonement (that being in Anselm's Cur Deus Homo -- "Why the Godman?" -- and his articulation of the Substitutionary Theory of Atonement). I thought, Hmmm, do I want my entire theory of atonement resting upon a thousand years of dead air? Shortly thereafter, and by the grace of God, I came across a book entitled Christus Victor by Gustaf Aulen. That book, along with an accreditation glitch between RTS and the sister seminary I was attending in Co. Spgs., played a crucial role in my departure from Federal Calvinism (that "hardcore" stuff to which Judy refers). I can't arrange an accreditation glitch for you, but if you're interested, I will wholeheartedly recommend Christus Victor. Contrary to popular belief, the early church had more going for it than just a good-example theory of atonement: "recapitulation" being at the heart of it (e.g. see Irenaeus on Eph 1.10).  
 
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Imputed Righteousness

You don't need to make excuses for me JD.  Why not allow Andrew to reach his own conclusions.
At first I thought he was "one of you" but if you will take the time to go to his website and look at his
blogs you will find he is like a record.  A hardcore Calvinist recording, one who calls all other doctrines
and ppl who promote them evil and damns ppl like you and Lance to hell.  So hold the praise until you
find out who you are dealing with...  Believe it or not there are some out there who are worse than me.  
Oh but then, maybe his doctrine is not so alien to yours, because though he damns ppl who disagree
with him - at least he is orthodox and I know that is important...... to some.
 
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:18:55 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hi Andrew.   Apparently I didn't get the post that Judy references below.   Don't mind Judy  --  
she actually thinks she has to do something in order to be saved  rather than expreesing faith
in works that declare her faith to be alive.  
 
Your statement below is thoroughly "right on" and appreciated in a confirming sort of way. 
 
Jd 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 00:04:52 +1000 "Andrew C. Bain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Hi John,
I'm glad you read what I wrote. Christ said "It is finished" on the cross, didn't He? There's NOTHING -- no thoughts, emotions or obedience -- required for justification.
 
Really?
 
Let's look at what Jesus says about this:
"Truly, truly I say to you, every one who commits sin is the slave of sin.  And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever [.....] I know that you are Abraham's offspring; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you." (John 8:34,37)
 
Paul by the same Spirit writes after the ascension:
"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)
 
Peter after the ascension and by the same unction says:
"These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; FOR BY WHAT A MAN IS OVERCOME, BY THIS HE IS ENSLAVED"
 
Leave all the legal arguments to crooked lawyers and receive God's Word on the matter....
 
 
 
 
 
Welcome, Andrew.   Good words ---  important words.   It is surprising to me how many Christian folk want to believe something other than this message of hope.   They are everywhere  --  even here on TT.   Good folk who believe that works save them rather than the bibilical notion (IMO) that our works extend from the salvation  that is within us  -- one we call The Christ. 
 
Thanks again for your words.  JD
 

From: Andrew C. Bain <andrew[EMAIL PROTECTED]com>

If someone doubts that they are a believer of the gospel, because they sin, then they do not understand the gospel.
 
The WHOLE point of the gospel, is that Christ came to save filthy vile hell-deserving sinners who will continue to sin after their conversion (their change of mind to the truth). The LAW was NEVER meant to be the grounds of someone's assurance before God. By it is the knowledge of sin. By it Christians are convicted of sin.
 
But how do we know their is a Law? How do you know their is such a thing called sin? Where did you read that adultery is wrong, drunkenness is rebellion, and bitterness is abominable? By the Word of God. Well, doesn't the Word also say, "By His knowledge shall My righteous servant justify many" and "HE SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES" (Isa53). So if you have the knowledge of Christ, you are justified. If you believe that Christ was a ransom for many, your iniquities are as far as west is from east. How can you doubt? How can you doubt God? He can't lie. He knows everything. And He says that ALL who believe in Christ ARE .... no pause ... they ARE JUSTIFIED from ALL THINGS that they could not be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39). To doubt His testimony is to spit in his face (so to speak), call Him a Liar, and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
 
Recently, someone tried to tell me that the NT Hebrew Christians doubted their salvation, because they were wondering whether or not Christ had atoned for their wicked Judaism prior to their conversions. Now, I agree that converted Jews would have been convicted of the apostasy of their past Judaism. And this conviction arose from the Bible. The believing Jews in Rome would have been convicted by Romans 10. Here, God judges Israel apostate. He basically says Israel is full of Pharisees and hypocrites IGNORANT of the righteousness of God. But does God stop there, leaving all the Jews dead in their sins? Without faith, without hope, without God in the world? No. God never sends someone the Law without the Gospel.
 
And imagine one converted Jew -- who we'll call Yechezkel -- reading Romans 10. Yechezkel would have been reminded that when he was an apostate Jew, he had NOT been  "submitted to the righteousness of God" and that he had been "ignorant of the righteousness of God". Yechezkel have would be convicted that he had been an Atheist, with NO knowledge or understanding of God (Romans 10:2). He had been BLIND. In Satan's grip. Dead in sins. Anti-Christian. A God-hater. A liar against God. A blasphemer against the Holy Spirit.
 
But this was all past for Yechezkel. He now believed that Jesus FULFILLED the prophecies of Old. He know believed that Christ was the END of the Law for righteousness. God had revealed to Yechezkel (by the Spirit testifying to the Word) that Christ fulfilled and magnified the Law for EVERYONE -- ALL those -- who have believed, do believe, and will believe.
 
And only those who believe and are sure that He is the Christ, have His righteousness in their account.  God condemns doubters as lost. Romans 10:6: Do not say in your heart, Who will go into heaven? Romans 14:23 He that doubts ... is damned.
 
Yet, our imaginary friend Yechezkel has as much certainty that he will be heaven that Abraham is already.  Yechezkel only knows both of these truths by the Word. He's never seen Abraham in heaven. But God tells him that Abraham is. And guess what? God also says that not only was Abraham justified by His faith (that is, justified by who he believed in, Christ), but so is EVERYONE who believes.
 
Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
 
Andrew Bain
Sydney, Australia
 
 
 

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