JD wrote:
> I know Bill and say amen because I know
> what the man believes.............. party lines
> have nothing to do with it.
If you cannot see that Bill tried hard to express agreement on both sides of
this issue, then you yourself are partisan. I do not fault Bill for this.
I applaud it. My own father was like this in many ways. It is the
characteristic of a peace maker, and believe me, God loves peace makers.
Nevertheless, you do not seem to acknowledge that you agree with Bill, not
because of what he wrote, but because of your relationship and affection for
Bill. Why not ask Bill if I roll over because of my admiration for the man? Silliness on your part.
This is is what is meant by "political" or "party lines." More silliness.
JD wrote:
> You on the other hand have only Bill's post and your bias.
So your inside track gives you the advantage in understanding Bill better
than me, is that what you are saying?
In this case, that is exactly what I am saying. And in practical terms, how could this not be true?
You only illustrate how elitism
develops. No wonder you pursue a Ph.D. so late in life. Back to your old tricks, huh David?? You have
left yourself wide open for the return insult of the day - but I will let it go.
JD wrote:
> I can't imagine that Lance does not believe that we are
> made perfect by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
> You simply do not understand Pastor Muir. ... that's all.
You seem to be forgetting what this whole thread was about. It was about
the words of Lance, teaching us that we all participate "inadequately and
incompletely" in our relationship with Christ and with each other. Read
again what Lance wrote:
I know what he wrote, David - and more importantly, my ability to comprehend is little short
of astounding. In my observation regarding Lance (and Lance may or may not agree with my assessment),
when I write that I can't imagine that Lance does not believe that we are
> made perfect by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. I address the theology of vicarious death and
the resultant "perfecting of the saints" AS THE BENEFIT OF THIS SUBSTITUTIONARY DEATH-TO-LIFE CIRCUMSTANCE.
Lance, as I understand Lance, speaks of our efforts apart from what happend on the cross. This in
no wise means that Lance believes that we are not perfected by Another. If I am corrected by Lance on this
matter, I will stand corrected. Until then, I will only stand amused.
Lance wrote:
> As 'believers, we 'participate' (in our relationship with Him
> and with each other) inadequately and incompletely EVERY
> DAY. This is the reality of the Christian life. Any voice, human
> or otherwise, who would suggest that this is not the case speaks
> against the truth of the gospel.
Contrast the words of Lance with the wonderful words of John the apostle:
Before continuing with your version of proof-texting, let me remind you of the following biblical
considerations:
Lk 17:10 When we have done all that we can do, we are salves without worth
Ro 3:23 We continue to fall short of His glory.
Ro 2:1 And such are some of you
Ro 7:24 with our body we serve the law of sin and death
Eph 4:20ff summarily implies the continuing but decreasing influence of the old man
Ro 4:3 presents the continued need, on the part of God, for the substitution of faith in
view of our failure at fully obedient living (righteous)
Eph 4:11ff Because of the continuance of carnal choice, our delieverance is one attributed to
the process of maturity. God has set counsel within the church (apostles, prophets, evangelists,
pastors and teachers)"... until .. we have attained to a mature man, to the measure of stature
that belongs to the fulness of Christ." Counsel remains in the church because we have not yet
arrived. Nowhere in scripture are we taught that the indwelling Holy Spirit of God over powers
our person and secures absolute obedience
I Jo 1:8 "If we say that we do not [continue to] possess sin, we lie and the truth is not within."
I Joh 1:9 "If we continue to confess (our sinfulnesss) he is faithful and just to have already fully
and completely forgiven."
1 John 1:3
(3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may
have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and
with his Son Jesus Christ. We are asked to do what is fully accomplished in maturity.
Now if Lance had merely expressed his viewpoint that none of us are complete
in Christ, he would be like most other men, but he has now gone much further
than that, stepping into the realm of blasphemy. Nonsense upon nonsense. Lance is now speaking
authoritatively that anyone who would suggest that this is not the case,
speaks against the truth of the gospel. I have demonstrated otherwise. Lance has made himself an enemy of
the gospel of Jesus Christ. The problem is that neither you nor Bill has
recognized this. This is a simple case where friendship and party
affiliation must be set aside for the greater good of the truth of the
gospel. You should leave the ministry until you can get closer to the truth of Christ working on our behalf.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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