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Charles Perry Locke wrote: DAVEH: Shucks, Perry. I'm just trying to have a civil conversation that reflects the way I view the course of recent events between us. That sure is a nice thing to say about me. Do I have your permission to consider that jest offensive (sorry for the previous misspelling as "gest"), or are you not willing to allow me that, but instead tell me how I should feel?DAVEH: You can feel anyway you want, Perry. I just think the way one lets things affect oneself reflect on one's character. That's why it struck an odd chord with me when you feigned (from my perspective) offense at an innocuous comment. It seemed out of character for an otherwise relatively tough sounding guy. I knew it was a jest, I was not playing stupid, I just did not like that jest and told you so.DAVEH: I mean no offense at my following comment Perry.....But, that is why is sounded so stupid for you to say you were offended. Let me tell you from my perspective what I would do if you had truly offended me in some way (which would be extremely hard to do).....I'd never admit the offense, as it would put me in a (self introspection) position of weakness. That is not a good place for a conscious to be when standing before the foe, so to speak. To have strength through Jesus, it seems to me that one must have self confidence in believing in one's self worth despite what is said about me personally. When Jesus was being offended in the ultimate sense, what were his words? Your words/actions offend me!......No, instead he asked his Father....... forgive them; for they know not what they do. Now, I'm certainly not by any measure in the same league as our Savior when it comes to forgiving others. My fuse is relatively short in comparison, as you may know. But as I see it....it is the notion that IF we find ourselves being offended often, have we really been as submissive as our Elder Brother prompted us to be by forgiving 7 times 70? I don't know if that makes any sense, Perry....it is just my way of thinking about the matter. DAVEH: You've lost me on that one, Perry. But....did you notice the smiley? I was just trying to keep the conversation light.I accept your apology below, which I feel this time is genuine. Dave, but consider in the very next statement I indicated that you saw it differently,...that is not calling you a liar, but giving latitude for our differences. Isn't that the way you want me to deal with our differences?DAVEH: The way I like to deal with our differences, is similar to the way I like to conduct much of my business dealings....cards face up, so to speak. IOW, this is how I believe, and I think this is how you believe...so we have these differences as I see it. How do you see it from your perspective. Rather than go on the attack mode, I think it is more beneficial for both parties to state their cases and then respond to questions to find out what and why each party believes as they do. To me, much more can be learned. But as I see what some TTers prefer to do, is to approach it as a battle in which no prisoners are taken. Either you convert to their way of thinking, or you will be eliminated.....literally, sent to a punitive torturous death. So...rules of good behavior seem to not apply when playing the game like that. The discussions tend to become one way streets, where there is only one acceptable direction. I don't think TT was set up for that purpose, yet some TTers apparently think it was. DAVEH: Yes indeed.......Thank you, Perry! And, I appreciate you maintaining that decorum in these past few exchanges.Good job of emulating my tactics, Perry. Isn't that much better than outright making an outright dumb accusation....that I am a liar! If I had done that to you, I suspect you would have been hyper indignant that I would say something like that. Am I bothered by it....naw. I'd much rather see you say something like that than make a head on frontal attack that is patently false. It keeps the tempers under control, IMO. Man, I am trying to keep this civil, but you really can't stop pushing it, can you?DAVEH: I think I've failed to get my point across. I'm not trying to push anything. I'm merely trying to offer you my perspective by being very frank with you about my thoughts. And....I've tried to inject a little humor to keep things from getting too glum....but, I think I've failed to put you at ease. Perhaps that's the root of the problem, though. The message I am sending (such as the smoking comment) is not the one you are hearing. I liken it to our Lord relating many of the parables. They often times had multiple meanings.....one for one group of people, and another deeper meaning for those who could look beyond the surface to dig out the real message. I hope that makes some sense, as I believe it is very pertinent to most of our discussions. It seems like we rarely communicate on the same level. Is it typical for you to offer *what appears to be* a genuine apology, then continue to call me stupid and abase me?DAVEH: That was not my intention at all, and I apologize for failing to explain myself adequately. DAVEH: I'm not saying these things for the benefit of anybody else on TT except you, Perry. Most of the others are surely bored with my thinking by now. For them, I would expect them to use the delete key that is conveniently provided on every keyboard whenever they see my posts in their inbox. There may be a few who enjoy these exchanges, but from what little I've heard others say....I'd be surprised if anybody really cares. So....my thoughts are for your (and my, I suppose) benefit. If they are of no value to you....I'm sorry to waste your time. While we are having a relatively relaxed conversation though, I just wanted to play my cards face up so you can get a feel of how I think, and why I say what I sometimes do.I would expect you to see it differently than I did, of course. DAVEH: Maybe I'm wrong, but if there is one iota of evidence in the archives that would show me to be what you accused me of being, I can think of at least one TTers who has been searching through the old posts in an effort to disparage my character on TT. Other than that, you are essentially right Perry. Most folks are probably too bored with me to care. Or....do you think your memory is better than the memories of all other TTers? -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... 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