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Easy ... Jesus did not come to earth as God. He took
upon himself the form of a servant (Phil 2:6). He first layed
aside the "glory" he had with the Father. Truth
is truth. No man can look at God's face and live.... You saw
what happened to Uzzah when he tried to steady the ark
didn't you? or did you? judyt
Common sence must be used here.If God had
said" Moses met him face to face" and left it there then you would have
support for your Hypotisis but God didn't leave it there-He explained -no man
can see his face and live. No problem with that
here
DAVEH: To me it leads to a major
problem for many Christians. I can only assume that you believe many
people saw Jesus' face. Yet it seems a contradiction if you believe
Jesus was fully God, and yet people could see him and live. How do
you explain that paradox, Dean?
Dean Moore wrote:
if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face"
described in Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could look
and live), then the statement about him enduring it is
unnecessary,
DAVEH: Just as unnecessary as it would
have been for the Bible to suggest that merely hearing the voice of God
would bring death.......
[33] Did ever people hear the voice of
God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and
live? Dt 4
cd: Then pray tell why did He only appear
as a voice in a burning bush? Your own evidence fails to support your
words. And why was Moses only allowed to see his hinder parts?
Common sence must be used here.If God had said" Moses met him face to
face" and left it there then you would have support for your Hypotisis but
God didn't leave it there-He explained -no man can see his face and live.
No problem with that here- Smith let it there-with out
explaining-big difference.
.........The people back then had
the same mistaken understanding that you seem to have, Perry. They
misunderstood their relationship to God, assuming that God could not be
seen, otherwise the person seeing (or even hearing his voice) God would
die. They could not fathom that it was possible for man to have a
direct and personal relationship with God. The folks were even
afraid to get close to Moses after he conversed with the
Lord........
[30] And when Aaron and all the children of Israel
saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to
come nigh him. Ex 34
........It is very apparent that
Moses' exchange with God was something totally unexpected by the folks
back then, due to their errant belief that one could not see God without
suffering death.
As far as "similitude", it does not
mean an exact replica, or the thing itself. Furthermore, it refers
directly to whatever form is present. If god shows himself as a burning
bush, then his similitude is as a burning bush.
DAVEH: Huh?!?!?! Where did
you get that, Perry? Where in the Bible does similitude
suggest that? Quite the opposite.....As you will see below, God's
similitude was not a burning bush (note vss 12 &
15). Here are three verses from Deut that use the term
similitude.......
[12] And the LORD spake unto you out of the
midst of the fire: ye hear d the voice of the words, but saw no
similitude; o nly ye heard a voice.
[15] Take ye therefore good
heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude
on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the
midst of the fire:
[16] Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a
graven image, the similitude of any figure, the
likeness of male or female,
...........Notice how verse 12
mentions hearing a voice, but seeing no similitude.
Interestingly, verse 15 reinforces verse 12 in countering your above
comment about Moses seeing God in the burning bush by again
mentioning that God's voice was heard, but the
similitude of God was not seen at that time.
IOW....Moses did see the burning bush, but he did not see the
similitude of God at that time. Reading on to verse
16, similitude was used to warn against creating figures in
a human likeness that could be used as objects of worship.&nb sp; Now
Perry, if this does not give you a good idea of w hat similitude
means when the Bible says Moses saw the similitude
of the Lord, how do you define it? Do you still think the burning
bush represented the similitude of God?
Besides,
if the Torah is attributed to Moses, why would he have to write another
book, repeating, and with contradiction, the Torah?
You've lost me on that one, Perry.
Care to explain what you are thinking on that one? IF you perceive a
contradiction, then perhaps your understanding of what was said was
lacking. Or alternatively, perhaps the account is from two different
perspectives, or perhaps it is not complete. Until I know what you
are specifically referring to, I don't quite know how to
answer.
We are not destined to agree, and that is okay with
me.
I think you've missed the point,
Perry. You aren't just disagreeing with me on this.....you are d
isagreeing with the Bible.
on to my second ques
tion
For
what purpose? As I pointed out in detail, LDS Scripture agreed with
the Bible in the instance of Moses seeing God. That neither LDS
Scripture nor the Bible agree with what you think happened between
Moses and God pretty well defines your position, Perry. If you don't
want to agree with the Bible that Moses saw God, there really isn't much
more to discuss. As you said....Fini.
Charles
Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Simply put, in Moses 1:2, PoGP,
if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face" described in Exodus on
Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could look and live), then the
statement about him enduring it is unnecessary, because we know that
men can gaze upon whatever form god chooses to present himself, and
endure, except whatever he called his "face" on Sainai. The implication
in Moses 1:2 is that Moses should not have endured viewing God, but did,
thus, that he was seeing god's "face". If moses did not see god's face
in Moses 1:2, then enduring that feat was no big deal for moses...hardly
worth being called out. On the other hand, if he was seeing god's face
in Moses 1:2 and endured it, then Moses 1:2 is contradicting scripture.
Furthermore, if god were a man, why would he not appear as a man
every time he presents himself? Why a different form every time, but
never direct ly as a man? The use of body parts to describe his image on
Sinai is not unreasonable since these are certainly the terms Moses was
familiar with, and the ones he obviously chose to describe the
experience.
As far as "similitude", it does not mean an
exact replica, or the thing itself. Furthermore, it refers directly to
whatever form is present. If god shows himself as a burning bush, then
his similitude is as a burning bush.
Besides, if the
Torah is attributed to Moses, why would he have to write another book,
repeating, and with contradiction, the Torah?
I am done with
this topic. I have stated my position. Fini. We are not
destined to agree, and that is okay with me. Get you last shot in,
then...
on to my second question...how the mormon god,
who is "without beginning of days" is also a created being, thus, with a
finite beginning.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the
PoGP!
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:08:07 -0800
*I do know
that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.*
DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God wanted him to see
his body, but not his face. That is why he said to Moses......
*[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my
back parts_: but my face shall not be seen*. Ex 33
.........Do you deny that Moses saw God's back parts? If
not, then it is clearly obvious that Moses saw God. (And if you
do deny it, then it would seem you are contradicting the Bible.)
That d oes not mean he didn't *also *see a burning bush, or pillar of
fire, or column of smoke. Sure...he saw those things
too. But most important to this discussion....Moses
*literally *saw God. If you wish to ignore that simple fact
Perry, that is your privilege. I see it as denying the word of
God to do so though. Furthermore, I can't believe there would be
any Bible believing Christian TTer who would agree with
you. Am I wrong?
_*The implication in Moses 1:2
that Moses saw god's "face" and survived (endured) it. The Bible says
that is not possible.*_
That's pure nonsense,
Perry. You quoted LDS Scripture as saying.......
/*MOS 1:2 And _he saw God face to face_, and he talked with
him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses
could endure his presence.*/
..........Now let me ask why this
(Mos 1:2) would bother you, and yet you apparently have no proble m
with the Bible when it says in Num 14.......
*[ 14] And they
will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that
thou LORD art among this people, that _thou LORD art seen face to
face_, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest
before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of
fire by night.*
..........If LDS Scripture tells us that Moses
/_saw God face to face_/, and the Bible tells us that the Lord has
been *_seen face to face_*....then *who *do you suppose saw the Lord
IF it was not Moses? FWIW....I do not believe that the
phrase /_saw God face to face_/ or the phrase *_seen face to face_*
literally means in either case that God's face was seen. I have
had experiences where I've stood face to face with people, and have
not actually looked at their faces, but rather have handed them
something (such as money) or received something from them (such as a
coupon) without glancing upward to see their actual face.
But....I did see their bodies , or parts thereof.
/*none of
the verses you quot ed indicated that Moses saw this aspect of God's
appearance anyway.
*/Again........that is
nonsense, Perry. I previously quoted Num 12.......
*[8]
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark
speeches; and _the similitude of the LORD shall he behold_: wherefore
then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? *
Why do you think the the term *_similitude_* was
used, Perry? How else do you suppose they would say that
Moses actually *saw *God, instead of just a burning bush, pillar of
fire or column of smoke? The term *_similitude_* was expressly
used to prevent naysayers from saying that Moses did /not really/ see
God. Even so....it is sadly obvious that contrary to the Bible,
those naysayers even today continue to claim Moses did not see God.
_/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor
ANY man, could look at the biblical God's "fac e" and survive. yet
more proof that the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
I never claimed that Moses saw God's face.
So why you would think that is a contradiction boggles the mind.
*_/I don't "still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still
know" it does./_*
The contradiction is in your
mind, Perry. And, your assumption that God cannot be seen is in
error, and non Biblical. You have been shown just a few Biblical
passages that contradict your theory, Perry. (There are others
as well, but there is little reason to discuss them since you have
rejected the obvious ones.)
I have
been accused of being stubborn in my LDS biased beliefs, Perry....but
you certainly have overshadowed me this time. It is overtly
obvious that you have no desire to understand the truth of this matter
as found in the Bible. Simply put, compared to what the Bible
explains........you are teaching the doctrine of man, and as such it
must be from Satan........do you disagree?
*How about my
second question, Dave. *
What's the point of
going on to the second question, Perry? When I show you
specific Bible passages that clearly refute your erroneous theories,
and you just continue to disbelieve the Bible. Anything I would
try to explain to you from LDS passages would be less productive than
talking to a brick.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave wrote:
After reading more
of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still think that the
account you cited in Moses 1:2 contradicts the Bible?
*I do know that Moses saw something, what
god wanted him to see.* Was it a burning bush? A glowing mass? A
pillar of fire? A column of Smoke? You see, God appeared however he
wished to appear to Moses. It appears to have been different each
time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it was that god wanted him to
see...and in the appearance on Sinai, God certainly took a form that
moses could "see". However, on Sinai there was an aspect of this
appearance upon which no man could look and live. God called this
his "face". He protected moses from gazing upon this aspect of his
appearance, so it reasonable to believe that in future meetings
Moses did not see god's "face" or he would have died as the boble
states.
_*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's
"face" and survived (endured) it. The Bible says that is not po
ssible.*_ And, /*none of the verses you quoted indicated that Moses
saw this aspect of God's appearance anyway. */
Maybe the
mormon moses can look at the mormon god's face (and, since you think
the mormon god is a man, he must have a literal "face") and survive,
but , _/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor
ANY man, could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet
more proof that the mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
Thanks for the effort you put into this, Dave, but *_/I
don't "still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it
does./_* I am sorry that your mormon faith causes you not to be able
to see this.
------------------------
*How about my
second question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do not have to
look it up: *
It is a mormon belief that the mormon god was
once a man (from Kolob) who was a created being (if not as a man, at
least created as a spirit). Yet, in the PoGP (one of your standard
works consisting of revelation to JS, right?) I find the following,
which appears to say that the mormon god had no beginning ("without
beginning of days"):
MOS 1:3 And God spake unto Moses,
saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and
Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of
years; and is not this endless?
Now, how is it that the
mormon god had a beginning, yet is "without beginning of days"?
Thank you in advance, Dave, for taking the time to explain
this to me.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in
the PoGP!
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18 -0800
DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses below, let's look
what happened to him in Ex 33...
*[11] And the LORD spake
unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. *
...............At the end of the same chapter, the Lord
tells Moses........
*[20] And he said, Thou canst not see
my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
[21] And the
LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand
upon a rock:
[22] And it shall come to pas s, while my glory
passeth by, that I will put thee in a c lift of the rock, and will
cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
[23] And I will take
away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back parts_: but my face
shall not be seen.*
...........*_thou shalt see my back
parts_*, and as evidence that actually happened, ch 34
explains........
*[34] But when Moses went in before the
LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out.
And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which
he was commanded.
[35] And the children of Israel saw the face
of Moses, that the skin of _Moses' face shone:_ and Moses put the
vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
*...............That something miraculous had happened
that caused *_Moses' face_* to shine. Numbers 12 clarifies
what Moses saw........
*[5] And the LORD came down in the
pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and
called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
[6] And he
said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among y ou, I the
LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak
unto him in a dream.
_[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is
faithful in all mine house.
[8] With him will I speak mouth to
mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the
similitude of the LORD shall he behold:_ wherefore then were ye
not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?*
.........Notice that he distinguishes between Moses and
those of lesser faith. And he clearly points out that Moses
beheld the *_similitude of the LORD_*.
So
Perry, would you not admit that this clearly shows that Moses saw
God? That Moses did not see God's face is of little
consequence. Moses probably never saw the bottom of God's
feet either. But....according to the Bible he certainly saw
God.
After reading more of the account of how
Moses saw God, do you still think that the account you cited in
Moses 1:2.........
/_*And he saw God face to face, and he
talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses;
therefore Moses could endure his presence.*_/
..........contradicts the Bible? I certainly don't
see any contradiction, especially since the Bible quotes the Lord
as speaking *face to face* to Moses. Are you clear on that,
Perry........or do you continue to believe it is impossible to see
God?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
You have made the
statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God." If
it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on this, too.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Why is it that mormons like you,
Dave, aren't alarmed by these contradictions?*
DAVEH: Because LDS folks like me don't
view them as contradictions, Perry. Instead, we
view *your* understanding to be in error. Clearly the
Bible does show that man can see God. If you fail to
understand that concept, then you will never understand why
LDS folks don't see it as a contradiction.
Charles
Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Moses cannot see God
and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP!
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my
face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
/_/*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he
talked with him, and the glory of God was upon
Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*/_/
Dave, how can this be? The revelation to JS in the
PoGP contradicts the Bible!!! Which is correct? I have my
opinion, of course! And that is that if the moses of
mormonism saw the mormon god's face and lived, we must have
a different god, for no one can see the face of the God of
the Bible and live!
I have read only the first few
verses of the book of Moses in the Pearl of Greast Price
(one of the mormon standard works consisting of revelation
to JS from god, right?), and already have found two glaring
contradictions!!! Why should I read further?
*Why is
it that mormons like you, D ave, aren't alarmed by these
contradictions?*
Per ry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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