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As we approach that season wherein we celebrate the
coming of Immanuel, Judy raises an important point. Who was that child born to
Mary?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: November 17, 2005 02:13
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's
face and lives in the PoGP!
Easy ... Jesus did not come to earth as God. He took
upon himself the form of a servant (Phil 2:6). He first layed
aside the "glory" he had with the Father. Truth
is truth. No man can look at God's face and live.... You saw
what happened to Uzzah when he tried to steady the
ark didn't you? or did you? judyt
Common sence must be used here.If God
had said" Moses met him face to face" and left it there then you would have
support for your Hypotisis but God didn't leave it there-He explained -no
man can see his face and live. No problem with that
here
DAVEH: To me it leads to a
major problem for many Christians. I can only assume that you believe
many people saw Jesus' face. Yet it seems a contradiction if you
believe Jesus was fully God, and yet people could see him and
live. How do you explain that paradox, Dean?
Dean Moore
wrote:
if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face"
described in Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could look
and live), then the statement about him enduring it is
unnecessary,
DAVEH: Just as unnecessary as it
would have been for the Bible to suggest that merely hearing the voice
of God would bring death.......
[33] Did ever people hear the
voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard,
and live? Dt 4
cd: Then pray tell why did He only appear
as a voice in a burning bush? Your own evidence fails to support your
words. And why was Moses only allowed to see his hinder parts?
Common sence must be used here.If God had said" Moses met him face to
face" and left it there then you would have support for your Hypotisis
but God didn't leave it there-He explained -no man can see his face and
live. No problem with that here- Smith let it there-with out
explaining-big difference.
.........The people back then
had the same mistaken understanding that you seem to have, Perry.
They misunderstood their relationship to God, assuming that God could
not be seen, otherwise the person seeing (or even hearing his voice) God
would die. They could not fathom that it was possible for man to
have a direct and personal relationship with God. The folks were
even afraid to get close to Moses after he conversed with the
Lord........
[30] And when Aaron and all the children of
Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were
afraid to come nigh him. Ex 34
........It is very
apparent that Moses' exchange with God was something totally unexpected
by the folks back then, due to their errant belief that one could not
see God without suffering death.
As far as
"similitude", it does not mean an exact replica, or the thing itself.
Furthermore, it refers directly to whatever form is present. If god
shows himself as a burning bush, then his similitude is as a burning
bush.
DAVEH: Huh?!?!?!
Where did you get that, Perry? Where in the Bible does
similitude suggest that? Quite the opposite.....As you will see
below, God's similitude was not a burning bush
(note vss 12 & 15). Here are three verses from Deut that use
the term similitude.......
[12] And the LORD spake unto you
out of the midst of the fire: ye hear d the voice of the words, but saw
no similitude; o nly ye heard a voice.
[15] Take ye therefore
good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude
on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the
midst of the fire:
[16] Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a
graven image, the similitude of any figure, the
likeness of male or female,
...........Notice how verse 12
mentions hearing a voice, but seeing no similitude.
Interestingly, verse 15 reinforces verse 12 in countering your above
comment about Moses seeing God in the burning bush by again
mentioning that God's voice was heard, but the
similitude of God was not seen at that time.
IOW....Moses did see the burning bush, but he did not see the
similitude of God at that time. Reading on to verse
16, similitude was used to warn against creating figures
in a human likeness that could be used as objects of worship.&nb sp;
Now Perry, if this does not give you a good idea of w hat
similitude means when the Bible says Moses saw the
similitude of the Lord, how do you define it? Do you
still think the burning bush represented the similitude of
God?
Besides, if the Torah is attributed to Moses, why would
he have to write another book, repeating, and with contradiction, the
Torah?
You've lost me on that one,
Perry. Care to explain what you are thinking on that one? IF
you perceive a contradiction, then perhaps your understanding of what
was said was lacking. Or alternatively, perhaps the account is
from two different perspectives, or perhaps it is not complete.
Until I know what you are specifically referring to, I don't quite know
how to answer.
We are not destined to agree, and that is okay
with me.
I think you've missed the point,
Perry. You aren't just disagreeing with me on this.....you are d
isagreeing with the Bible.
on to my second ques
tion
For
what purpose? As I pointed out in detail, LDS Scripture agreed
with the Bible in the instance of Moses seeing God. That neither
LDS Scripture nor the Bible agree with what you think happened
between Moses and God pretty well defines your position, Perry. If
you don't want to agree with the Bible that Moses saw God, there really
isn't much more to discuss. As you
said....Fini.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Simply put, in Moses 1:2, PoGP,
if Moses did not see god's "face" (as "face" described in Exodus on
Mt. Sainai, upon which God said no man could look and live), then the
statement about him enduring it is unnecessary, because we know
that men can gaze upon whatever form god chooses to present himself,
and endure, except whatever he called his "face" on Sainai. The
implication in Moses 1:2 is that Moses should not have endured viewing
God, but did, thus, that he was seeing god's "face". If moses did not
see god's face in Moses 1:2, then enduring that feat was no big deal
for moses...hardly worth being called out. On the other hand, if he
was seeing god's face in Moses 1:2 and endured it, then Moses 1:2 is
contradicting scripture.
Furthermore, if god were a man, why
would he not appear as a man every time he presents himself? Why a
different form every time, but never direct ly as a man? The use of
body parts to describe his image on Sinai is not unreasonable since
these are certainly the terms Moses was familiar with, and the ones he
obviously chose to describe the experience.
As far as
"similitude", it does not mean an exact replica, or the thing itself.
Furthermore, it refers directly to whatever form is present. If god
shows himself as a burning bush, then his similitude is as a burning
bush.
Besides, if the Torah is attributed to Moses,
why would he have to write another book, repeating, and with
contradiction, the Torah?
I am done with this topic. I
have stated my position. Fini. We are not destined to
agree, and that is okay with me. Get you last shot in, then...
on to my second question...how the mormon god, who is
"without beginning of days" is also a created being, thus, with a
finite beginning.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the
PoGP!
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:08:07 -0800
*I do know
that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.*
DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God wanted him to
see his body, but not his face. That is why he said to
Moses......
*[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou
shalt see my back parts_: but my face shall not be seen*. Ex
33
.........Do you deny that Moses saw God's back
parts? If not, then it is clearly obvious that Moses saw
God. (And if you do deny it, then it would seem you are
contradicting the Bible.) That d oes not mean he didn't *also
*see a burning bush, or pillar of fire, or column of smoke.
Sure...he saw those things too. But most important to
this discussion....Moses *literally *saw God. If you wish to
ignore that simple fact Perry, that is your privilege. I see
it as denying the word of God to do so though. Furthermore, I
can't believe there would be any Bible believing Christian TTer who
would agree with you. Am I wrong?
_*The
implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived
(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.*_
That's pure nonsense, Perry. You
quoted LDS Scripture as saying.......
/*MOS 1:2 And _he saw
God face to face_, and he talked with him, and the glory
of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*/
..........Now let me ask why this (Mos 1:2) would bother
you, and yet you apparently have no proble m with the Bible when it
says in Num 14.......
*[ 14] And they will tell it to the
inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art
among this people, that _thou LORD art seen face to face_, and that
thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by
day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.*
..........If LDS Scripture tells us that Moses /_saw God
face to face_/, and the Bible tells us that the Lord has been *_seen
face to face_*....then *who *do you suppose saw the Lord IF it was
not Moses? FWIW....I do not believe that the phrase
/_saw God face to face_/ or the phrase *_seen face to face_*
literally means in either case that God's face was seen. I
have had experiences where I've stood face to face with people, and
have not actually looked at their faces, but rather have handed them
something (such as money) or received something from them (such as a
coupon) without glancing upward to see their actual face.
But....I did see their bodies , or parts thereof.
/*none of
the verses you quot ed indicated that Moses saw this aspect of God's
appearance anyway.
*/Again........that is
nonsense, Perry. I previously quoted Num 12.......
*[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently,
and not in dark speeches; and _the similitude of the LORD shall he
behold_: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my
servant Moses? *
Why do you think the the
term *_similitude_* was used, Perry? How else do you
suppose they would say that Moses actually *saw *God, instead of
just a burning bush, pillar of fire or column of smoke? The
term *_similitude_* was expressly used to prevent naysayers from
saying that Moses did /not really/ see God. Even so....it is
sadly obvious that contrary to the Bible, those naysayers even today
continue to claim Moses did not see God.
_/according to the
B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY man, could look at
the biblical God's "fac e" and survive. yet more proof that the
mormon god is not the biblical God. /_
I never
claimed that Moses saw God's face. So why you would think that
is a contradiction boggles the mind.
*_/I don't "still
think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it does./_*
The contradiction is in your mind, Perry.
And, your assumption that God cannot be seen is in error, and non
Biblical. You have been shown just a few Biblical passages
that contradict your theory, Perry. (There are others as well,
but there is little reason to discuss them since you have rejected
the obvious ones.)
I have been
accused of being stubborn in my LDS biased beliefs, Perry....but you
certainly have overshadowed me this time. It is overtly
obvious that you have no desire to understand the truth of this
matter as found in the Bible. Simply put, compared to what the
Bible explains........you are teaching the doctrine of man, and as
such it must be from Satan........do you disagree?
*How
about my second question, Dave. *
What's the
point of going on to the second question, Perry? When I
show you specific Bible passages that clearly refute your erroneous
theories, and you just continue to disbelieve the Bible.
Anything I would try to explain to you from LDS passages would be
less productive than talking to a brick.
Charles Perry Locke
wrote:
Dave wrote:
After reading more
of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still think that the
account you cited in Moses 1:2 contradicts the Bible?
*I do know that Moses saw something, what
god wanted him to see.* Was it a burning bush? A glowing mass? A
pillar of fire? A column of Smoke? You see, God appeared however
he wished to appear to Moses. It appears to have been different
each time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it was that god wanted
him to see...and in the appearance on Sinai, God certainly took a
form that moses could "see". However, on Sinai there was an aspect
of this appearance upon which no man could look and live. God
called this his "face". He protected moses from gazing upon this
aspect of his appearance, so it reasonable to believe that in
future meetings Moses did not see god's "face" or he would have
died as the boble states.
_*The implication in Moses 1:2
that Moses saw god's "face" and survived (endured) it. The Bible
says that is not po ssible.*_ And, /*none of the verses you quoted
indicated that Moses saw this aspect of God's appearance anyway.
*/
Maybe the mormon moses can look at the mormon god's
face (and, since you think the mormon god is a man, he must have a
literal "face") and survive, but , _/according to the B-I-B-L-E,
neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY man, could look at the
biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof that the mormon
god is not the biblical God. /_
Thanks for the effort you
put into this, Dave, but *_/I don't "still think" it contradicts
the bible...I "still know" it does./_* I am sorry that your mormon
faith causes you not to be able to see this.
------------------------
*How about my second
question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do not have to look it
up: *
It is a mormon belief that the mormon god was once a
man (from Kolob) who was a created being (if not as a man, at
least created as a spirit). Yet, in the PoGP (one of your standard
works consisting of revelation to JS, right?) I find the
following, which appears to say that the mormon god had no
beginning ("without beginning of days"):
MOS 1:3 And God
spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord
God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning
of days or end of years; and is not this endless?
Now, how
is it that the mormon god had a beginning, yet is "without
beginning of days"?
Thank you in advance, Dave, for taking
the time to explain this to me.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in
the PoGP!
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18 -0800
DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses below, let's
look what happened to him in Ex 33...
*[11] And the LORD
spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his
friend. *
...............At the end of the same chapter,
the Lord tells Moses........
*[20] And he said, Thou
canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and
thou shalt stand upon a rock:
[22] And it shall come to pas
s, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a c lift
of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my
back parts_: but my face shall not be seen.*
...........*_thou shalt see my back parts_*, and as
evidence that actually happened, ch 34 explains........
*[34] But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak
with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came
out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was
commanded.
[35] And the children of Israel saw the face of
Moses, that the skin of _Moses' face shone:_ and Moses put the
vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
*...............That something miraculous had happened
that caused *_Moses' face_* to shine. Numbers 12 clarifies
what Moses saw........
*[5] And the LORD came down in
the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the
tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came
forth.
[6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a
prophet among y ou, I the LORD will make myself known unto him
in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
_[7] My
servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently,
and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall
he behold:_ wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against
my servant Moses?*
.........Notice that he distinguishes
between Moses and those of lesser faith. And he clearly
points out that Moses beheld the *_similitude of the LORD_*.
So Perry, would you not admit that this
clearly shows that Moses saw God? That Moses did not see
God's face is of little consequence. Moses probably never
saw the bottom of God's feet either. But....according to
the Bible he certainly saw God.
After
reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2.........
/_*And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him,
and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses
could endure his presence.*_/
..........contradicts the
Bible? I certainly don't see any contradiction, especially
since the Bible quotes the Lord as speaking *face to face* to
Moses. Are you clear on that, Perry........or do you
continue to believe it is impossible to see God?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
You have made the
statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God."
If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on this, too.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Why is it that mormons like you,
Dave, aren't alarmed by these contradictions?*
DAVEH: Because LDS folks like me don't
view them as contradictions, Perry. Instead, we
view *your* understanding to be in error. Clearly the
Bible does show that man can see God. If you fail to
understand that concept, then you will never understand why
LDS folks don't see it as a contradiction.
Charles
Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Moses cannot see God
and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP!
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my
face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
/_/*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he
talked with him, and the glory of God was upon
Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*/_/
Dave, how can this be? The revelation to JS in the
PoGP contradicts the Bible!!! Which is correct? I have my
opinion, of course! And that is that if the moses of
mormonism saw the mormon god's face and lived, we must
have a different god, for no one can see the face of the
God of the Bible and live!
I have read only the
first few verses of the book of Moses in the Pearl of
Greast Price (one of the mormon standard works consisting
of revelation to JS from god, right?), and already have
found two glaring contradictions!!! Why should I read
further?
*Why is it that mormons like you, D ave,
aren't alarmed by these contradictions?*
Per ry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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