Dean wrote: >>> Calvin said God gave him his authority >>> to kill-God clearly did not do
Bill Taylor wrote: >> Where did Calvin say that? Dean wrote: > J. Calvin wrote: > Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put > heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly > and willingly incur their very quilt. This is not laid > down on human authority; it is God who speaks and > prescribes a perpetual rule for his church (Shaff, > History of the Christian Church, Vol. VIII, p.791.). This partial quote does NOT indicate that Calvin said God gave him (Calvin) authority to kill. Calvin would argue that he had no authority to kill. What he is arguing here in context is the authority of the civil magistrates, the State, to wield the sword of God for this purpose. Calvin argues that those who do not support Romans 13 and the authority of the State to wield God's punishment against such evil doers are knowingly and willingly incurring their guilt. This is like saying that if we do not support the idea that the State should punish murderers, then we are incurring the guilt of murderers. There is room to debate this point, but let's not twist his words into some statement that Calvin believed God gave him authority to kill. You are misunderstanding his argument. Dean wrote: > He never once told us or the disciples to > kill those that break this law. He also never told the authorities to stop killing those who deserved death according to the law, did he? Would Jesus want us to get rid of the justice system and no longer prosecute murderers and thieves? Is that what you are arguing? Dean wrote: > No I do not agree as I am confined by the Bible > which does not call for one to die over committing > blasphemy -Titus 1 clearly states they must be > silenced by opposing those who do such and even > strong rebuke-but not death. I am glad that you make this point here, Dean. Bravo. I like it. Nevertheless, this passage in Titus is speaking about the authority of the bishop, and Calvin would 100% agree with you in this context. On the other hand, when you say that the Bible does not call for one to die over committing blasphemy, well, that statement is flat out false. You need to consider the whole Bible, and not just one part that you argue is silent about it. The Bible is very specific, showing how the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord as well as the one who commits murder, should be put to death. Following is the passage for your consideration, where it even gives an example of a man who was stoned to death for blasphemy: Leviticus 24:15-23 (15) And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. (16) And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death. (17) And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. (18) And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. (19) And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; (20) Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. (21) And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death. (22) Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God. (23) And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses. Dean wrote: > You must remember That J.Calvin made a decree that > heretics, and blasphemers, and those that say it is unjust > to kill for these reasons were put to death-not just > blasphemers. I think you are reading too much into his statement. He does not mean that the civil authorities should put to death those who disagree. I read him to be saying that before God, when they appear before God and are judged by him, they will bear guilt for not siding with God's Holy Scriptures, the Bible, because they know what the Bible says should be done to blasphemers, but they disagree and do not support the Scriptures. I could be wrong, but that is how I read it. Dean wrote: > I hope you also understand that I believe in the > death penalty as I am also told to keep the laws > of the land unless they conflict with the laws > of God-I see no conflict ions except aborting > and Sodomy. ??? What!? No conflicts except abortion and sodomy? What about adultery? What about how they deal with divorce in light of what Jesus taught? What about ordering the Ten Commandments into the closet? The list goes on and on... Dean wrote: > God put governors and rulers in place to make such > decisions and stated that He would abide by their > decisions- Including their decision against Servetus? Does God abide by the decision that the governors and rulers made against Servetus? Dean wrote: > as will I for it is even a sin to speak against > these rulers-even angels will not do so. Then you cannot speak against what these rulers did to Servetus, is that what you are saying? Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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