Somehow , I missed this.
DAVEH: My apologies, Bishop. I took Judy's comment out of the context
of her post of December 6, which you may have missed. I will repost it
below........
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I think they did nto have to transgress and
if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the heartache, suffering,
and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord
want that for them/us?
Do you mind if I ask why this subject is
so interesting to you??
DAVEH: Because the Protestant view seems rather narrow and lacks depth
of understanding, as I understand it. I don't mean that to sound
offensive, but rather an observation from what I've learned from asking
you folks about it.
Let me ask you a few questions, Judy. Do you think the Lord
wanted A&E to know the difference between good and evil? And, if
A&E had not transgressed, do you think they would have
known the difference? Also....do you think God created A&E while
knowing that they would definitely transgress, or do you think there
was a possibility that they would not transgress?
Judy Taylor wrote:
You have brought this up in the past on TT
DaveH but it didn't last long because there is no place to go with it.
By definition all anyone could come up with
is their own speculation. God wasn't caught blindsided. He knew
and prepared for this "BEFORE the foundation
of the world" so it's too late for "shoulda, coulda, woulda" now.
Do you mind if I ask why this subject is
so interesting to you??
DAVEH: May I suggest another topic of interest to me? I am
curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what would have
happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed. Does
that discussion ever come up with you folks?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: Look -- what are we going to discuss here on TT? We have
pretty much said all that can be said about any number of subjects.
jd
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto have to
transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and
the rest of
humanity all of the heartache,
suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why
would the Lord
want that for them/us?
Somehow , I missed this. The
answer above completely misses the point of both the "plan of
salvation" and the account of Adam and Eve including their creation.
Secondly, exactly what was the question asked by Judy? Why would
the Lord want THAT for them/us? --- ???????? That ?? There is
only one other consideration in her comment, so it must refer to
"that" -- if they had not they would
have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery
that has been the human lot since then
Does anyone out there see the problem, here?
Why would God want THAT (if they had not
they would have saved themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the heartache,
suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then ) FOR US -- WHY WOULD HE WANT ADAM AND EVE TO BE SINLESS AND SAVE US
ALL THAT MISERY? And that would be a bad thing? "We" are grossly
confused , here. And to think that the Holy Spirit gave Judy this
thought is about to make me an ATHEIST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jd
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Hansen < dave@langlitz.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:40:04 -0800
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E
He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?
if they had not they would have saved
themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the heartache,
suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then.
DAVEH: Thank you two for your
comments, both of which focus in one facet of the A&E situation of
which I am most keen. One of my earliest religious memories was a
comment a neighborhood kid made to me in which he said A&E screwed
it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit. He explained that had they
not transgressed, we would all live forever without experiencing
death. Even though the kid was less than religious later on in life,
his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks
have sparked that fire again.
I must be missing something about your (forgive me....but let me
say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If A&E had not
transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have
transgressed ? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do
something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that at
some point---probably much sooner than later---one of A& E's children would have fallen? Or do
you believe that of the billions who descended from A&E, none would
ever have transgressed? Just what are the chances of that
happening.....zilch?!?!?!
So....why do most Christians blame A&E for the misery in the
world, when it was inevitable. From my perspective....not only was it
expected, but it was planned. And.......evidently you believe that as
well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained
to be our Savior from before the world was created.....that it was
planned? (Please let me know if you do not believe such.) Yet you
apparently don't believe that God wanted it to happen that way. Do you
see why your perspective perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like
I said....perhaps I'm missing someth
ing about the way you understand it.....
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto have to
transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and
the rest of
humanity all of the heartache,
suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why
would the Lord
want that for them/us?
Terry Clifton wrote:
God
hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver, no
matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many times I
am given that option. God will give you the option, but it is not His
desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of being God,
wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to make choices
that bring pain and death.
Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers, selfishness,
starvation, disease.Do you think that maybe He wanted Adam and Eve
to ruin it for everyone?
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH:
One more fact from your perspective, Terry.........I assume you believe
that God did not want A&E to sin though, even though he knew they
would. Is that correct?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Just
the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin.
Fact two: God hates sin.
Fact three: Getting people to sin is the top priority of Satan.
It's over. We know who to blame. Nothing to discuss.
Dave Hansen wrote:
No. Actually,
I have never heard this question discussed
DAVEH: That rather surprises me. I remember asking
Perry a similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off. That rather
surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.
As I understand, most Christians (including Protestants, RCC and independents) believe that God
wanted A&E not to transgress. IFF
that was actually his intention, then it seems an interesting thought
avenue to pursue. Yet, the few who've
responded seem to indicate that they have no interest in pondering what
the Lord intended to be. To me, that seems very strange. Does it
strike you as rather curious, John?
were A & E predestined to sin?
DAVEH: Yes, I did ask that questi
on. I do not know what you folks believe about predestination and foreordination. Since you apparently
do not believe we existed in a pre-mortal state, it would seem to me
that you would not believe in either. But....I don't want to assume
such without at least asking you first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
No. Actually, I have never heard this question
discussed. You asked me to comment on a question -- perhaps a
week ago, now. Aaaahhhhhh,
was it "were A & E predestined to sin?
jd
DAVEH:
May I suggest another topic of interest to me? I am curious as to if
any of you folks ever consider what would have happened IF Adam and Eve
had not transgressed. Does that discussion ever come up with you folks?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Look -- what are we going to discuss here on TT? We have pretty much said all
that can be said about any number of subjects.
jd
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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