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DAVEH: It is not that I disagree with what you said below,
Judy.....But, I think you've gone off topic. We are discussing A&E's
transgression, not our own. As soon as they were cast out of the Garden
for their transgression, I think they pretty well knew they had no grounds to
accuse Him of being unloving or unjust.
To think that God put them through that test
just to prove to them the consequences of
disobedience seems a little illogical to me, Judy.
How is it illogical? When you being evil tell
your child if you do that I will spank you. When they do it and
you
spank them - why is warning them
illogical? Just jumping on them out of the blue would be illogical
to me.
Ponder that God foreordained Jesus to
be A&E's Savior even before A&E were created. He then created a
universe just for A&E, and then a planet with all the goodies to keep
A&E alive, and then a Garden full of everything they would need to live
forever in a very pure and comfortable environment. Then God plants one
evil tree (from your perspective) and turns Satan loose in paradise to have a
go at tempting A&E just to test A&E in an effort to prove to A&E
that they will not have grounds to accuse Him of
being unloving or unjust. Whew!!!.........To me that sure
seems like a lot of effort for minimal return, Judy.
Makes sense to me DaveH but then I accept God's Word,
I don't try to second guess him or figure out a better
way to do things. It is written already and sealed in
heaven so to me all speculation is a big waste of time and
does not lead to peace and
rest..
Please don't think that I am
trying to minimize the import of this topic....nothing could be further from
the truth. To me, understanding the circumstances of the Fall is
extremely important. It just seems from my perspective that the commonly
believed Christian perspective regarding the Fall doesn't really explain why
it happened, which is why I find it interesting to learn what you believe
about it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Let me get this straight - you are saying that the
Christians have all been deceived about why the fall happened
and you Mormons are the only ones who know the facts
of the matter?? Am I hearing correctly??
Judy Taylor
wrote:
When all of us stand before God at the great white
throne judgment... we have to know where we failed. Noone
will have grounds to accuse Him of
being unloving or unjust because we will have condemned ourselves and
we will know this without anyone having to tell us... So the test
is for us rather than for Him. judyt
To test them
DaveH
DAVEH: ??? Do you not think
God knew their faith, Judy? Why do you think God would need to test
them, since he created them....knowing they would transgress?
Judy
Taylor wrote:
To test them DaveH. Faith
is ALWAYS tested.
He did not plan for them to fall.
DAVEH: If
that is so, then why do you think he placed the tree of knowledge of
good and evil in the Garden of Eden, Terry?
Rather than go to all the trouble of preparing a remedy for the fall,
would it have not been immensely easier to simply not have put the
tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? IOW....there
must have been a reason for God to put the tree there.
Seems like it would be important to understand for what the purpose
the Lord placed that tree there. Why do you think,
Terry?
Terry Clifton wrote:
This seems so obvious that it should be hard to
miss, but if you have been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect
it would be hard to accept.
God is omnicient, He knew they
would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He
planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.
As to their
descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is
speculate, and speculation often leads to
error.
=================================================================
Dave
Hansen wrote:
He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for
everyone?
if they had not they
would have saved themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the heartache,
suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since
then.
DAVEH: Thank you two for
your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the A&E
situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest
religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in
which he said A&E screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden
fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would
all live forever without experiencing death. Even though the
kid was less than religious later on in life, his comment always
struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that
fire again.
I must be missing something
about your (forgive me....but let me say, Protestant) belief about
the fall. If A&E had not transgressed, do you think none
of their descendants would have transgressed? In my
experience, the best way to get a kid to do something, is to
forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that at some
point---probably much sooner than later---one of A&E's
children would have fallen? Or do you believe that of the
billions who descended from A&E, none would ever have
transgressed? Just what are the chances of that
happening.....zilch?!?!?!
So....why do
most Christians blame A&E for the misery in the world, when it
was inevitable. From my perspective....not only was it
expected, but it was planned. And.......evidently you
believe that as well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to
be our Savior from before the world was created.....that it was
planned? (Please let me know if you do not believe
such.) Yet you apparently don't believe that God wanted it
to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective
perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I
said....perhaps I'm missing something about the way you understand
it.....
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto
have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved
themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the heartache,
suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since
then. Why would the Lord
want that for
them/us?
Terry Clifton wrote:
God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will
never eat liver, no matter how many onions you use to cover it,
no matter how many times I am given that option. God will
give you the option, but it is not His desire. I think that must
be one of the toughest parts of being God, wanting what is best
for His people, yet allowing them to make choices that bring
pain and death.
Look around you. Child molesters,
burglars, robbers, selfishness, starvation, disease.Do you think
that maybe He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for
everyone?
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: One more fact from your
perspective, Terry.........I assume you believe that God did
not want A&E to sin though, even though he knew they
would. Is that correct?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did
sin.
Fact two: God hates sin.
Fact three:
Getting people to sin is the top priority of Satan.
It's
over. We know who to blame. Nothing to
discuss.
Dave Hansen wrote:
No. Actually, I have never
heard this question
discussed
DAVEH: That rather
surprises me. I remember asking Perry a similar
question sometime ago, and he blew me off. That
rather surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue
it.
As I understand, most
Christians (including Protestants, RCC and independents)
believe that God wanted A&E not to transgress.
IFF that was actually his intention, then it seems an
interesting thought avenue to pursue. Yet, the
few who've responded seem to indicate that they have no
interest in pondering what the Lord intended to
be. To me, that seems very strange. Does
it strike you as rather curious, John?
were A
& E predestined to sin?
DAVEH:
Yes, I did ask that question. I do not know what you
folks believe about predestination and
foreordination. Since you apparently do not believe
we existed in a pre-mortal state, it would seem to me that
you would not believe in either. But....I don't want
to assume such without at least asking you
first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No. Actually, I have never
heard this question discussed.
You asked me to comment on a
question -- perhaps a week ago, now.
Aaaahhhhhh, was it "were A & E
predestined to sin?
jd
DAVEH:
May I suggest another topic of interest to me? I
am curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what
would have happened IF Adam and Eve had not
transgressed. Does that discussion ever come up
with you folks? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Look -- what are we
going to discuss here on TT? We have
pretty much said all that can be said about any number
of subjects.
jd
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
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