Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit

[Judy Taylor]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:42:37 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Actually, you didn't answer the question.   The gentile in Romans 2 IS NOT  a regenerated individual.   How do we know this?  This is a person who has never heard the preaching of the law of God  ( Paul contrasts hearing with doing in this context) AND his salvation is tenuous , at best,  because it is based solely upon his ability to "naturally" obey the law  apart from any spirit influence or knowledge of the law. 

 

How do you know he had never heard the preaching of the cross of Christ?  He just didn't have the Law the way that the Jews did. 

 

The point of Romans 2 is the contrast between the have's and the have not's.   The Gentiles are those who outside God's revelation and the Jews are those who are in.  

 

He is speaking to the Church in Rome JD; all believers are in and in Christ there is no separation

between these ppl so why are you making one here?

 

Paul begins with this scenario.    Now I know that this is no longer true  -   but Paul is using this very distinction to teach that in Christ's economy, the distinction between Jew and Gentile is no longer important. 

 

Not only unimportant, it is no longer there unless the Jews are still practicing Judaism.  Remember

this is written in 57 AD 24yrs after the cross and in Rom 2:11 Paul announces that God shows NO

partiality. 

 

T he Gentile  -  typically speaking  -  is not God's chosen while the Jew is  -- typically speaking .    Using this stereotype, Paul makes the point that is most shocking to the Jewish Christian in Rome..........  hearing is not the most important issue ---- doing is.   

 

Why would Paul contradict (by what you see as a stereotype) what he had just said in Vs.11 JD?

This makes no sense at all.  The Jews had been trying to do God's Law since Moses came down

from Mt. Sinai unsuccessfully.

 

The contrast of hearing and doing is unmistakable in 2:13-14.   Hence, the Gentile has not heard

the law. 

 

It is not there JD, you are reading this into the text.  It's the old "us vs them" mentality that is

accepted in many church circles.  Think about it in light of the fall of man and the old sin nature

How is an unregenerate gentile who has never heard God's Law going to do it by nature? They

would not even know what to do - never having been told.

 

As far as unregenerated man not being able to do good   --   why did Jonah go  to Nineveh?

 

Jonah was a prophet who had a ministry gift working in his life which he was trying to run from.

 

The Roman believer (Jew or gentile) would have to be regenerated to 'DO BY NATURE' what is written in God's Law.  Love is the fulfillment of the law and an unregenerated gentile would be unable to do this.  Paul was speaking to the Church  at Rome wasn't he? 

 

Not in Romans 2. He was addressing the Judaizing legalists of the Roman church in chapters 2, 3, 4. 

 

No he wasn't JD; the letter begins with an introduction and then in Vs.7 Paul writes "To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints ... this is who the letter is written to -the called out ones.

 

And , as often as not,   he fails in this doing , by the way. If the phrase "by nature" means to include the indwelling of the Spirit, then the Jew in this passage DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT, for he is clearly NOT doing the law "by nature."   Your theology of Ro 2 has the Jew , in this passage lost and without the Spirit.   But, of course, you do not believe that a nd so away you go.  

 

My so called theology is not judging any Jew one way or the other. 

 

I am not talking about judging the Jew, Judy.   I am talking about your theology.    First, you imply that "by nature" means the new nature,  but then, in this passage only the Gentile has this "nature" thing going for him which means that the Jew does not.  Paul is making a contrast between what is done "by nature" and what is not.   You simply cannot sneak the Holy Spirit into any of this without serious contextual problems  --  one of which I have mentioned.  "By nature" simply cannot mean to include the "new nature." 

 

Why make this so complicated JD. The focus from Vs.6 on is "obeying the truth" vs judgment no matter which way one receives the truth as opposed to the wrath and fury that comes with disobedience - By Vs.12 Paul writes "All who have sinned without the law will also perish without

the law and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.  I see no statement about

the spiritual condition of the Jews here at all.

 

I assume a believing Jew would do the same thing but having access to God's law helps me so I figure it would also help them. Why would the Judaizers be coming to the Church at Rome on Sunday - they would be going to the Synagogue wouldn't they?

 

And your out of context I Co 2:14 is really getting old.   So unregenerated man cannot receive the things of God unless he is given the Holy Spirit of God  --  right?  

 

RIGHT!!  This is what Paul is teaching here and it would make things a whole lot easier for you if you accepted the fact.

 

There are those who have the Spirit and are thereby regenerated and those who do not and are unregenerated.   And the unregenerated cannot receive the things of God  -  nothing from God for all that God lays on us is spiritual  --   right????  

 

RIGHT. 

1.  God is a Spirit (John 4:24)

2.  The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty (2 Cor 3:17)

3.  Satan the fallen angel is a spirit

4.  Mankind are spirit beings (Zech 12:1)

5.  The Law is spiritual (Rom 7:14)

 

And this would include the Corinthians  --  right??  I mean , the text says ".....and even now, you are still not able"  (I Co 3:2).  So, why is he writing to them if they are not able to understand what he is saying?   And how did they come to a knowledge of the truth in the first place ?????   And on what occasion do you KNOW that you are right and cannot be wrong,  Judy y?   How many times have you read the text,  layed it down and said to yourself,"  I have no need to read this again for I know that I know ,"  Could you give me an example of a few specific scriptures that you understand to the point of never having to review those scriptures for "truth's" sake?   Maybe just four or five scriptures.  

 

No JD, I couldn't give you anything because you and your theologians already KNOW IT ALL.

 

And how many of these questions will you now ignore?  

 

If I had been sensible enough to read through the whole thing first I wouldn't have answered any of them

because you are not sincerely wanting to know anything from me - you are just bloviating here and your mind

is already made up.

 

Its called  "gatcha."   Bless your heart, Judy.   You are honest enough to allow the post to include your reponse just as it happened !!!   Hats off.   Most would have changed their first reponses.   And you are wrong about my honesty.   I would accept your point of view if I could answer my own queestions offered to you.   But I cannot answer those questions using your theology either. 

 

 

 

You are cultish in your doctrine and blind to any possibility of change.   That is NOT the leadership of the Spirit. 

 

If I were you JD, I'd go back to Barth. He is the one with all the answers, along with TFT, Polyani, etc...      Why go back when I am doing so good with the biblical text ??!! 

 

I will await your answers.   Still waiting. 

 

jd

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 03:24:07 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit

Whatever JD;  You asked the question, I just answered it.

Maybe it's best for you to stick with Barth and leave Romans to those who understand Paul the apostle who

is inspired by the Spirit of God.  As I've said before scripture is 'spiritually discerned' 1 Cor 2:14. So my reason, your reason, and/or Barth's reasonings have nothing to do with anything, not anything important that is.

 

 

                                         judyt                                       
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
                              is a liar (1 John 2:4)

 

                                         judyt                                       
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
                              is a liar (1 John 2:4)