On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:05:10 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Actually, you didn't answer the question.
The gentile in Romans 2 IS NOT a
regenerated individual.
How do we know this? This is a person who
has never heard the preaching of the law of God
( Paul contrasts hearing with doing in this
context) AND his salvation is tenuous , at best, because
it is based solely upon his ability to "naturally" obey the law apart from any spirit
influence or knowledge
of the law.
You have changed the wording of Vs.14 from "When
gentiles who have not the law do by nature what
the law requires" - to "naturally" obeying the law
JD. Why? How do you know they never heard the
preaching of the cross of
Christ?
The point of Romans 2 is the contrast between
the have's and the have not's. The Gentiles
are those who outside God's revelation and the Jews
are those who are in.
He is speaking to the Church in Rome JD; all believers are in and in Christ there is no
separation between these ppl so why are
you making one here?
I am making one because Paul did.
CAn't you read? He is the one who speaks of G-E-N-T-I-L-E-S
and J-E-W
and and
contrasts them in terms of hearing the law and not having heard the law.
You deny this?
Only to make his larger point which is what he
begins the 2nd chapter of Romans with, which
is "therefore you have no excuse O man whoever
you are for judging another - he then goes on
to explain God's kindness which is meant to
lead them to repentance and/or God's righteous
judgment" His point is NOT racial
differences.
Paul begins with this scenario. Now I
know that this is no longer true - but Paul is using this
very distinction to teach that in Christ's economy, the distinction between Jew and Gentile is
no longer
important.
Not only unimportant, it is no longer there
unless the Jews are still practicing Judaism. Remember
this is written in 57 AD 24yrs after the cross
and in Rom 2:11 Paul announces that God shows
NO
partiality.
"non-partiality" IS NOT the theme of this
section of Romans 2, Judy ......inwardness verses the
letter of the law is, hearing versus
doing. In the passage THE GENTILE IS ONLY ONE DOING
THE WUILL
OF GOD BY NATURE......the Jew is not.
He does go on in the rest of
chapter 2 to contrast teaching the law to others while neglecting
to
obey it themselves dishonors God and makes them
lawbreakers which is curious in the light of
your teaching JD which is
that following the cross the law is no
more.
The Gentile - typically
speaking - is not God's chosen while the Jew is --
typically speaking .
Using this stereotype, Paul makes the point that is most shocking to the
Jewish Christian in Rome
hearing is not the most important
issue ---- doing is.
Why would Paul contradict (by what you see as a
stereotype) what he had just said in Vs.11 JD?
This makes no sense at all. The Jews had
been trying to do God's Law since Moses came
down
from Mt. Sinai
unsuccessfully.
Judy, in Romans 2:23, who is NOT keeping the
law -- the Jew or the Gentile? And who is
doing the deeds of the law by
"nature?"
How did we get to Vs.23? I thought we
were discussing Romans 2:14,15? Arn't you a bit
ahead
of yourself? Oh well! Let's just look at
Paul's summary in Vs.29 which is "He is not a real Jew
who is one outwardly, nor is true
circumcision something external and physical. He is a
Jew
who is one inwardly, and real circumcision
is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal.
His
praise is not from men but from God. OK
so the gentiles were able to do the law because they
had circumcized hearts. IOW they were born of
the Spirit so they were able to do "by nature"
what is required by God's
Law.
The contrast of hearing and doing is unmistakable in
2:13-14. Hence, the Gentile has not
heard the law.
It is not there JD, you are reading this into the
text.
This is the perfect example of bias overwhelming reason.
You are so convinced of the notion
that unregenerated man cannot
understand the will of God nor accomplish anything good that
you cannot see what is being said here in
Romans 2: 11ff. You don't see the words "Gentiles"
and "Jew" in this text? You don't
see the words "by nature" associated with the Gentiles
only in this passage? You can't see
this?
Yes I can see the words JD - and I can
understand them. There is nothing in the text about
whether or not the gentiles who are by nature
doing what is required in the law have or have
not heard the preaching of the
gospel. You have the old "us vs them" mentality that is
accepted in many church circles. Think
about it in light of the fall of man and the
old sin nature
How is an unregenerate gentile who has never heard of God's Law going to do
what is
required in it by their pagan
nature?
As far as unregenerated man not being able to do
good -- why did Jonah go to Nineveh?
Jonah was a prophet who had a ministry gift working in his life
which he was trying to run from.
Judy, you chuck and jive, giving no answers because your theology has no
answers. It is empty.
NEWS FLASH: NINEVEH REPENTED.
Read the rest of the story. Nineveh
repented at the preaching of Jonah because he was a
prophet sent to them by God even if he did go
unwillingly and had an attitude that stunk. Are you
telling me that Jonah did by nature the things
required in God's Law? Give me a break. The
Roman believer (Jew or gentile) would have to
be regenerated to 'DO BY NATURE' what is written
in God's Law. Love is the fulfillment of the law and an unregenerated gentile would be unable to
do this. Paul was speaking to the Church at Rome wasn't
he? \
Not in Romans 2. He was addressing the
Judaizing legalists of the Roman church in chapters 2, 3,
4.
No he wasn't JD; the letter begins with an introduction and then in Vs.7 Paul writes "To all God's
beloved in Rome, who are called to be
saints ... this is who the letter is written to -the called
out ones.
Chapters 2,3,4 and 5 will have special import to the
Jew. Romans 2:23 is a question of the Jewish
Christian only, Judy.
Do you say this because your theology tells you
that God's Law is irrelevant to everyone else
JD
