Dean, Don't get me wrong, here. I do not believe the Catholic Church speaks for God. I am talking about the members (that I know, personally) and not the RCC. Maybe I cannot argue this point without appearing to be supportive of Catholicism.
When you speak of the Pope forgiving sins -- it helps me, at least, to understand that the Pope or the prient in confession is an extension of the grace of God in Christ. The doctrine that surrounds that consideration flies in the face of a persoanl relationship with Christ (for some) and is considered to be wrong (by me) for that reason among others. but I do not see correctness in any church.
On Christmas eve, here in the Central Valley, one of the priest gave a talk on the Catholic TV station. It was great !! If you closed your eyes, you would have no idea whether the speaker was Evangelical Free or Lutheran or Baptist. I am not suggesting that this absolves any of the issues of Catholic doctrine, but I am suggesting that this illustrates that Christ is at the center of that church for those within its membership who are devoted to Chrsit. Not one word of the Pope, of the "right chruch," of Catholicisn as a preference over other churches. No,. Rather, this TV discussion was in honor of Christ. The RCC is the quintessential "works salvationist" Christian Church. Restitution is a big deal to the Catholic.
It might be somewhat of a surprise to the reader, but the Catholic church no longer burns objectors. my degree came from a Catholic school and I can attest to the fact that there is a great deal of debate within the RCC and it ranges from the authority of the Pope to the liturgy tradition (i.e. English mass or Latin) . The RCC is in a constant state of flux --------- much more so than any church with which we Protestants (ooops) are associated. Look at the American Catholic and the issue of abortion. To object to abortion is to make contest against the Pope. And Pope John Paul made it impossible for the Church to ever reverse itself on that issue --------------- something few American Catholics are aware of, apparently. But no one is given church discipline for this departure, Anyway --
When Jesus was approached by the Pharisees concerning the traditions of the church (if you will) , He made it clear (to me) that tradition was not wrong in and of itself. Only if it led one away from God or Godly responsibilites. Giving honore in the Jewish first century world was paying money or giving money to something. To give honor to the Temple, although not a part of any instruction from God, was ok but if it was used as an excuse to not provide from one's [elderly] parents, the tradition was not grossly acceptable.
Statues are not idols. They are not. A statue of Mary is just that. A prayer to Mary is just that, as well. Neither the statue nor the prayer are used by the Church to move the parishioner away from Jesus Christ.
Just giving you my view of scripture on this subject.
You ask about purgatory, almost as if you and I disagree on that subject. I am quite sure we do not disagree. But I do not want to get into that sort of thing. Some of their teachings are indefensible to us -- and I do not want to be misunderstood. I am giving reason why I can accept a Catholic as a brother without accepting the tenets of his faith (or at least not all of the tenets of his faith).
I believe that if we fellowship no one but those we agree with, well, the church building need be no larger than a pickle barrel. Agreed?
jd
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
----- Original Message -----Sent: 1/6/2006 10:08:42 PMSubject: Re: FW: Re: [TruthTalk] Catholics and Idols (to Dean)How do you define Idolatry John? If you are the one whom decides what Idol is or is not-what do you do with God's definition of what an idol is?An idol is both an object and a concept. It is of man's own creation, on both counts. And it takes one away from the true and Living God. All three circumstances must be in demonstration, as far as I am concerned. Nothing in the Catholic church is designed to take one away from the Christian God.jdcd: I find agreement with object, concept, and the taking away from the Glory of God but disagree with it being only man's invention as Satan is seeking to destroy any way possible so he gives man things to harm his relationship with the Almighty. In my limited understanding John-any thing that is used to praise-or in the act of praise-that is other than God- is designed to take glory away from God. In the last few years the RCC has started a movement to make Mary equal with Christ in salvation to take this glory away from Christ (see below Articles). In my view to bow before a Pope/Priest and ask him to forgive one sins is to take away from God and leave the person asking still in their sins.Catechism Of the Catholic Church:Article 966 Finally the Immaculate Virgin,...and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things.964 ..There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan , enduring with her only begotten son the intensity of his suffering...John is Jesus Mary's only begotten son or God's only begot ton son?969 ..which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercessions continues to bring us the gift of eternal salvationJohn isn't Jesus the only mediator between God and man?Matt:12 :46-50 Show what status Jesus gave to his mother-He was preaching she and his brothers /sisters.called him out -he didn't go and said (pointing to those around him ): Behold my mother and my brethren.John-so Mary did have more sons?How could Jesus be the only begotten?My Cousin rented a home to a Catholic man a few years ago-a very nice man-whom I have met. One day this man came to my cousin and stated:" I have noticed that you give your left-over food to you dogs. Can I have some?". To wit my cousin stated buying him food and did so for many years. Later after taking him to the doctor she was told that he was dying of cancer-but my cousin asked the Doctor not to tell him and she would care for him in death-which she did with her husbands help. One day she noticed he was depressed and asked him why. He said that his sister has just died and was told by the RCC Priest that he would have to come up with $3.000 for prayer so that his sister soul could leave Purgatory.At that point my cousin got her bible and converted him to Christianity. My question John is where is purgatory in the bible?
