Re: [TruthTalk] Christ - incarnate God (Judy)

[Dean Moore]

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Judy Taylor

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent: 1/9/2006 7:52:13 AM

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christ - incarnate God (Judy)

Yes.  Hi Dean, sorry I missed this.

I disagreed with John about Col 1:19; in his zeal to prove a doctrinal point he wrote:

 

2.  Secondly,  Col 1:19-20 tells us that Christ reconciled all thing UNTO HIMSELF.  If Christ were only the representative of God,  there would be no value in having drawn all thing, on the earth and in the heaves unto Himself.  This passage makes sense only as one admits to the deity of the incarnate Christ  -- we should not forget that the act of reconciliation was performed in the body of His flesh. 

 

I wrote:

Read it again and focus on Vs.19; Christ is reconciling all things to the Father - this is not about HIMSELF.

 

cd: I see and agree with you Judy as the one whom has done the wrong needs to be reconciled to the one they have wronged. In this example God was wronged by us and Christ "cleansed" that wrong. But what I see John doing is placing Christ in the role of the Father which in my opinion would not fit his subject role in this situation-in my opinion. I view Christ as being sent -by the father-to remove the condemnation that existed because they were condemned already. To me God held the condemnation in his hand and Christ held the cloth to cleanse that hand which was done on the cross. John feel free to correct me if I am incorrectly stating you role in this discussion- Thanks. For support I offer John 3 and the below word of Dave Clark.

oh 3:17 For^{1063 God2316 sent649 not3756 his848 Son5207 into1519 the3588 world2889 to2443 condemn2919} the3588 world;2889 but235 that2443 the3588 world2889 through1223 him846 might be saved.4982

< /FONT>

Joh 3:18 He that believeth4100 on1519 him846 is not3756 condemned:2919 but1161 he that believeth4100 not3361 is condemned2919 already,2235 because3754 he hath not3361 believed4100 in1519 the3588 name3686 of the3588 only begotten3439 Son5207 of God.2316

Joh 3:19 And1161 this3778 is2076 the3588 condemnation,2920 that3754 light5457 is come2064 into1519 the3588 world,2889 and2532 men444 loved25 darkness4655 rather3123 than2228 light,5457 because1063 their846 deeds2041 were2258 evil.4190

Joh 3:20 For1063 every one3956 that doeth4238 evil5337 hateth3404 the3588 light,5457 neither2532, 3756 cometh2064 to4314 the3588 light,5457 lest3363 his846 deeds2041 should be reproved.1651

Joh 3:21 But1161 he that doeth4160 truth225 cometh2064 to4314 the3588 light,5457 that2443 his846 deeds2041 may be made manifest,5319 that3754 they are2076 wrought2038 in1722 God.2316

 

Adam Clark wrote:

Col 1:20 - And, having made peace through the blood of his cross - Peace between God and man; for man being in a sinful state, and there being no peace to the wicked, it required a reconciliation to be made to restore peace between heaven and earth; but peace could not be made without an atonement for sin, and the consequence shows that the blood of Christ shed on the cross was necessary to make this atonement.To reconcile all things unto himself - The enmity was on the part of the creature; though God is angry with the wicked every day, yet he is never unwilling to be reconciled. But man, whose carnal mind is enmity to God, is naturally averse from this reconciliation; it requires, therefore, the blood of the cross to atone for the sin, and the influence of the Spirit to reconcile the transgressor to him against whom he has offended! See the notes on 2Co_5:19, etc.Things in earth, or things in heaven - Much has been said on this very obscure clause; but, as it is my object not to write dissertations but notes, I shall not introduce the opinions of learned men, which have as much ingenuity as variety to recommend them. If the phrase be not a kind of collective phrase to signify all the world, or all mankind, as Dr. Hammond supposed the things in heaven may refer, according to some, to those persons who died under the Old Testament dispensation, and who could not have a title to glory but through the sacrificial death of Christ: and the apostle may have intended these merely to show that without this sacrifice no human beings could be saved, not only those who were then on the earth, and to whom in their successive generations the Gospel should be preached, but even those who had died before the incarnation; and, as those of them that were faithful were now in a state of blessedness, they could not have arrived there but through the blood of the cross, for the blood of calves and goats could not take away sin. After all, the apos tle probably means the Jews and the Gentiles; the state of the former being always considered a sort of Divine or celestial state, while that of the latter was reputed to be merely earthly, without any mixture of spiritual or heavenly good. It is certain that a grand part of our Lord’s design, in his incarnation and death, was to reconcile the Jews and the Gentiles, and make them one fold under himself, the great Shepherd and Bishop of souls. That the enmity of the Jews was great against the Gentiles is well known, and that the Gentiles held them in supreme contempt is not less so. It was therefore an object worthy of the mercy of God to form a scheme that might reconcile these two grand divisions of mankind; and, as it was his purpose to reconcile and make them one, we learn from this circumstance, as well as from many others, that his design was to save the whole human race.

 

Actually, Judy, the word "Father does not appear in the text.  The KJ people added the word to the text.  I have the gk text used by the KJ people  (Berry's interlinear) and "Father" is not there.   The only idenified deity in the text  (go back to verse 15 and read from there) is Jesus

 

I used the NASV and Amp because they were the closest to the computer at the time. They say the same as the KJV because this verse (V.20) speaks of the Father rather than Christ.

 

cd: To me these other versions only add confusion-which I do need any more of  because there seems to be more than enough to go around-So I will quote you as saying" the KJV is enough for me":-) Funny- in the last year we have come full circle sister as I was using the other version to offer deeper meanings. But I do see growth in you and am also learning from you as well as others-even DaveH offer something if one watches the dark side of the force:-)