Re: [TruthTalk] The rationality of "God" -- nonsense

[knpraise]

 

 

John writes:     

It is you who says He is not God in the flesh.  It is you who teaches that He was only a similar man.  

 

Judy , forgetting her own words, even her own beliefs, makes this demand  --- 

Show me JD, in my words please?

 

So John abliges

Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as"  Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world

is also fallen.  There is none righteous and none that does good .... EXCEPT ONE.

(from a post writen on 1/16 )

 

 

Some comments below, as well

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 

 

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:51:56 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Bring down?   Me saying that He is God in carnate?  Surely you jest !!

admitting the plain truth of scripture, that He was a man in every respect such as I  ?  

 

He looked as you do "YET WAS WITHOUT SIN" and this is "huge"  You have never known

what it was like to be "without sin" and He never knew what sin was until He hung on the cross

at Calvary.  He definitely knows what it is now.

 

It is you who says He is not God in the flesh.  It is you who teaches that He was only a similar man.  

 

Show me JD, in my words please?

 

You criticize me and in so doing, you criticize virtually everyone you know.   You can't find anyone

in the real world who agrees with your rendition of these maters.   

 

Sure I can JD - you assume way too much.  What makes you think that everyone I know even has an opinion about these issues?]

 

Why not ask them.   If you run with Christian who have no opinion about the deity and humaity of Christ,  well, you are not in good company.  Ask your preacher or those at BSF.   But I suspect that you know that I am right, in this.  You go on the attack, defending what turns out to be only your theology and no one elses. 

 

Don't you see, Judy, that you have gotten so caught up in the logic -- or should I say the illogic of Christ as fully God and fully Man that you have created a theology that separates you for all others.   You ridicule those who respect and refer to Church history  (ala Church Fathers) when, in fact, it is historical tradition and the counsel of others that keep us on track when it comes to a study of God's written word. 

 

I already know what you are going to say  --  "JD knows nothing of the Spirit of God  - the same Spirit that has revealed all these things to me."   OK.  Let me ask  --  why has the Spirit chosen to reveal this only to you?  Answer me that and I will leave it alone   --  no response.  I just do not see any consistency in either you or DM with this notion that you (two) are illuminated to the truth by the Spirit.   On this point of discussion  (the deity/humanity of Christ)  you are at odds even with DM.  How is it that you do not feel a sense of caution in the knowledge that you stand alone? 

 

I have my struggle with the "fall"  and have recently made the case for my thinking.     I am fully aware that I am the only one  who believes what I believe .   Caution is the word for the day  --  for me.   I cannot move beyond what I have expressed,  because I hae nowhere to go  --  intellectually.     So I keep on reading, praying, asking for help here on TT  --  all the while adding to my own thinking.   BUT ,  I do not run from counsel nor hide from what has already been written.  

 

Are you open to other instruction of this matter (deity/humanity) ?    I hope so. 

 

jd

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are the ONLY ONE I have ever met who believes that Adam and Eve were not flesh and

blood but "spirit beings" before the fall  ------------   the only one.  

 

Well you can count me out - AND THEN THERE WERE NONE - Because the above is not

what I believe at all.  It is a construct of your own very active imagination JD. 

 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

You try to bring the Lord Jesus Christ down to your level JD, rather than allow God to conform you

to His Image as you work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.  It's just easier if He does it all

Right?  No sweat!!!

 

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:29:38 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I will repeat what you have spoken,  Judy Taylor.

jd

 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 

 

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 03:21:28 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Dean, don't get too excited , here.   Judy does not use the word "human" as the rest of us that word.  

Nor does she believe that Christ was God in the flesh  ....

 

I would ask you once more to control yourself JD and refrain from putting your words in my mouth.

I am quite capable of speaking for myself; the above is incorrect.

 

Oh really??  !!  Your words , not mine  --  "  Jesus

could not have been exactly the same as us because we are all born into an Eph 2  reality and He was not.   As i said  --  Judy does not use the word "human" as the rest of us use that word.  

 

 

unless you ,too, believe that could be God while being something less than God at the same time. 

 

Yes, the Son of God. (John 14:28) for whom the Father was "greater" than he. 

 

If Christ is God in the flesh, then He is fully God because He simply could not be anything less than fully god without being something other than God at the same time.   Neither can He be only part human without being somethin other than human at the same time.  

 

Of course he can.  He can be whoever God says he is and wants him to be.  He came as the suffering servant,

remember??

 

Judy defends the notion that Jesus is only part God, in the above.   She ignores the fact that "servant" is a station in life while "God" is descriptive of the very being of the Divine.   To be part human is to be something other than human.  To be part God is to be something other than God.   Whatever Jesus is, whoever Jesus is -  He is the SAME yesterday, today AND FOREVER  --  which means He never changes.  Once God, always God.  

 

 

When we reject the incarnation of Christ because of  the fact that we cannot comprehend how He can be fully God and fully man, it  is an insult to the notion that He is unique  (only begotton = unique).   Uniqueness,  true uniquessness as in "one of a kind"  cannot be considered rationally.  

 

He can not be fully God and fully fallen man as you are trying to claim which to me is akin to Calvin making

God responsible for the fall and all sin thereafter because in Calvin's opinion he decreed all that.

Your comments about Calvin beg the question at hand.   You just got through saying  He can be whoever God says he is and wants him to be.  Sooooo, He can be fully God and fully man  !!  You have just admitted the possibility  !!! 

 

I believe in a triune God because I SEE three personages ,  not because I can explain that reality to anyone !!  It is faith that carries me beyond doubt on this matter and reminds me of my place in the order of this  universe  -  the same universe of which God is the Creator. 

 

The triune Godhead can be seen in the scriptures.

Of course. 

 

It is truly heresy to demand and pretend to fully understand Gd in three persons, or God in Christ, or God at all !! 

 

You can speak for yourself JD .. and you are the ONLY one you can speak for.

I speak "revealed truth,"  and since you are a sister of the illumination,  you should know this. 

 

jd

 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 

Excellent points Dean

And you are not trying to cut Him up into different exclusive pieces - Hallelujah to King Jesus!!

 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:11:54 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

cd: Can that likeness to human flesh also be a reflection of Christ's mental capacity?

Did that capacity have the likeness to man or was there more?  John the Baptist was said to be greatest among men-yet Christ was greater-How can both be true David if He was only a man?  Could Christ be greater than the greatest man and only be a common man?  The least in heaven is greater than John-yet there is none greater than Christ in heaven-if so they would have been able to open the book described in Rev.-none could.  Yes, He was sent in the likeness of man and more-much more.What man can retain the memory of sharing glory with God from creation?

 

 

In other words, in the same way that we speak of the likeness of Christ to Father God, so also we should speak of his likeness to humanity and human flesh.

 

David Miller.

 

cd: Can that likeness to human flesh also be a reflection of Christ's mental capacity?Did that capacity have the likeness to man or was there more?John the Baptist was said to be greatest among men-yet Christ was greater-How can both be true David if He was only a man? Could Christ be greater than the greatest man and only be a common man?The least in heaven is greater than John-yet there is none greater than Christ in heaven-if so they would have been able to open the book described in Rev.-none could. Yes, He was sent in the likeness of man and more-much more.What man can retain the memory of sharing glory with God from creation?

----- Original Message -----

From: Judy Taylor

To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:25 PM

Subject: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Likeness might mean like but not exactly like, but it also might mean so
much like it as to be indistinguishable.  When we say that Jesus is the
image of Father, or that he is like the Father, so much so that when you
have seen Jesus you have seen the Father, it might be inappropriate to say
that Jesus is like the Father, but not exactly like him.  Do you see it
differently, Judy?  David Miller.

 

I don't know ....  When He walked the earth as a man He was not the Father

because He prayed to the Father and when He said these words to Philip ie:

"If you have seen me you have seen the Father" (John 14:9) I believe He is

referring to the ministry rather than to Himself personally because everything

He said and did (both works and words) he had first seen the Father saying

and doing which he explains further in John 14:10 and John 5:19.

 

 

----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT
DIVINE

 

 

Only a similitude or likeness even "in every way" is not the exact same
thing JD.

 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:12:30 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind,
or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for
then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17).

 

Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as"  Every
human being born by procreation into this fallen world
is also fallen.  There is none righteous and none that does good .... EXCEPT
ONE.

 

 

Judy argues "like us" in total disregard of the additional phrase  "IN EVERY
WAY"

 

 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 

 

 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
I was just wanting to better understand what you were wanting me to agree
with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have
divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can
agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not
completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing
the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to
the divine.

 

If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind,
or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for
then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17).

 

Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as"  Every
human being born by procreation into this fallen world
is also fallen.  There is none righteous and none that does good .... EXCEPT
ONE.

 

And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of
the person of Christ in terms of "parts": if he is fully human and fully
divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what
you meant and could thus look through it.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

 

 

----- Original Message -----
From: Dean Moore
----- Original Message -----
From: Taylor

 

So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a
human have "divine thoughts"?

 

Bill
cd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is
limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one
thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked
according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be
such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to
pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and
hence allow more diviness to control us.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dean Moore

 

cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts.
----- Original Message -----
From: Taylor

 

If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ while walking
this earth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you
also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO.

 

Bill

 

----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

 

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