Now, will you please go back to my earlier post and tell me if you think Jesus was the Seed of David according to the flesh, or do you think God make him of some kind of super substance unrelated to Mary and thus unrelated to David and Abraham and everyone else?
Thanks,
Bill
cd: Very well thought out Bill and very well articulated in your below reply. I agree with it and I realize by saying this it would appear as I am back and forth but one must realize that this debate seems to be back and forth-with slight shifts from everybody which is a good thing as we are adjusting our belief to be more concise-meaning we are thinking on a deeper level.To answer you question: Yes, Jesus was from the seed of Abraham and therefore took upon himself the flesh of man- and I see no super substance in sight.I allow that he is wholly God and wholly human with the understanding that by claiming Humanity- I am referring to the state we are in as Christians and that Christ's struggles and sufferings come from this nature as opposed to Cain's evil nature-which therefore is Satan's nature which allow for no struggle against sin- of course I personally believed he took on a Godly nature later on-I am speaking of Cain-of course- not Satan :-). I am also allowing Chris
t,s divinity for the entire time he walked the earth- but I do not allow for Him to not be wholly God and to not be wholly Human . I also allow Christ to be created a little lower than the Angles in His divinity for the purposes of Death as even Angel cannot be killed-but I contend fallen man is much lower than Angles-of course one can also argue that there are also fallen Angles and at this time I am not going there. Does this answer your questions- or are there others Bill?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/20/2006 1:43:00 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?
Dean writes > So now I have another question for you Bill respectfully. In what way was Christ born of God and did He show the God part of His nature while on earth-If so in what way did he show that nature?
My belief is that the person of Christ is completely God in his divine nature and completely human in his human nature. It does not do to think of him as partly God and partly man, because that would make him wholly something else, something other than both God and man. This should be easy to see, but for some reason it is confusing to most people. If you don't mind, Dean, I would like to present this problem in categories closer to our likeness, and then from that analogy shift back to a discussion on the person of Christ.
If one were to impregnate a woman with the sperm of, say, a dolphin, and if she were to give birth to a living being, what would that creature be? Would you look at it and call it your brother? No, you would not, and this because even if it bore resemblance to you, the fact would remain that it would not be human. It would be something else, something other than who you are in your own flesh. The truth would be, no matter how adept that that creature got at mimicking you, it would never be able to experience life in the way that you do.
But here's the kicker: neither could it return to the water and live as a dolphin, because the more it was representative of you in your likeness the less it could be like its father. And so it would be caught in an impassable chasm of un-familiarity: neither Dolphin, nor Dean -- and wholly ill-equipped to be like either.
The same is true of Jesus: if he were partly God, and partly man, then he could not be like us in every way -- for that would be impossible, because we are fully human! Ah, but neither could he say, "If you've seen me; you have seen my Father," because no matter how much he said it, the truth would eventually surface: his Father is fully divine. In truth, he would be neither God nor man, but a new breed of being, what the Greeks called in their mythology a "demigod." In truth, Jesus would be an alloy, Dean, neither zinc nor copper but brass -- not God, not man, but Hercules.
If Jesus taught us anything in his time on earth, we ought to know that divinity and humanity do not mix. He says to Nicodemus that "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit." When God and man come together, what do you get? God and man together -- a unity, Dean, and not an alloy. Is there any wonder why Christians get confused? Unlike Greek mythology Jesus is not a mixture of God and man confused to make a demigod. No, when Jesus says that flesh gives birth to flesh, and Spirit gives birth to Spirit, he is saying that he is both fully God and fully man. His is that he is both Son of God and son of man. Everything which applies to God applies to him, and everything which applies to humanity applies to him, as well, because he is the God-man -- two natures in one person. Therefore, when he says that seeing him is equal to seeing his Father, he is telling the truth. And when it is
said of him that he was made like us in every detail, that too is true. And there doesn't have to be any confusion about this because we can think the two thoughts together in terms of union and not alloy.
The truth is that God the Word assumed a second nature in the incarnation, Dean, and this is the only way it could work. John says, "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us." That is to say that the Word, who was always God, became flesh also. Now the Son of God was human being, too. Jesus can therefore be completely divine and at the very same time also be the Seed of David through Mary according to the flesh; in other words, human in every way that we are human, forever able to call us brothers. How did it work? In the one person of Christ the two natures partnered in perfect koinonia. Christ's divinity united with his humanity and in that union the Offspring of David learned obedience. From womb to tomb in the one person of Christ the Son of God taught the son of man how to love his Father.
And so, Dean, Jesus did not become less than God to be more than man. No, he actually was man. And what he did in his human being was thus representative of all human being. Hence his victory is our victory, as well.
Now, will you please go back to my earlier post and tell me if you think Jesus was the Seed of David according to the flesh, or do you think God make him of some kind of super substance unrelated to Mary and thus unrelated to David and Abraham and everyone else?
Thanks,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:17 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?
cd: Think you just answered my question Judy. I don't see Jesus in the fallen state either-If so whom could He believe in for salvation-himself-who was fallen? I do however disagree with the statement of "Ours is fallen." More like "Ours was fallen" which I think you meant to say so no problem. So now I have another question for you Bill respectfully. In what way was Christ born of God and did He show the God part of His nature while on earth-If so in what way did he show that nature?
----- Original Message -----
To: [email protected]
Sent: 1/18/2006 10:58:43 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Certainly I think Jesus was born of God, Dean. And I will be glad to address that aspect of his person. But before going there I would like to clearly state that you seem to be making a different argument than Judy's. And if you are, then my question would not apply in the same way to you as it does to her. And so, I would like you to be sure you are truly affirming the same things as she, before you speak on her behalf.
From my understanding of Judy's position, she denies that Jesus was born a flesh-and-blood descendant of David through physical birth to Mary. She believes that God made a special kind of flesh for Jesus and put it in Mary's womb, and that that flesh was unrelated to fallen humankind, being only "similar" to that of us. That is, she believes Jesus' flesh was like Adam's before he fell. Hence because of her beliefs, Judy cannot affirm the teaching that Jesus is a physical descendant of Adam, and that he is the physical Seed of Abraham and the physical Seed of David, all according to the flesh.
Why don't you let me tell what I believe in my own words Bill - I find the above unrecognizable; it is certainly nothing that would come from me. I know nothing about special kinds of flesh; I do know of two different kinds of nature
though, one fallen and the other holy and pure. Ours is fallen. Jesus' was not. His was pure and holy from birth.
This and this alone is the "great divide" Please do not put your words and concepts in my mouth Bill. Let Dean
ask me himself if he wants to know what I believe.
You, on the other hand, write that you are not denying the biblical teaching that Jesus was the Seed of David according to the flesh and that he was born of David's flesh and blood. You appear to be affirming the truth that Jesus' humanity came from the fruit of David's "genitals" (Friberg) according to the flesh. In short, you seem to believe that Jesus really was David's "offspring."
Dean, that is a different position all-together from Judy's. My question for you is, did you realize what you were affirming when answering my question?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/18/2006 8:19:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
The question is still out there. What person among us indwelt with the Holy Spirit could deny that Jesus Christ, the Seed of David according to the flesh, was born of David's flesh and blood?
Bill
cd: Nor am I denying that Bill, but what of the power of the over shadowing of the Holy Spirit-didn't He also contribute something to the child Jesus.----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?"
Oh, and you know the question that you and the Pharisees can't answer: "If David then calls him 'Lord,' how is he his son?" Well, since Jesus is both God and man, he is both David's Lord (God) and his son (man). That's what Peter is saying in Acts 2.36: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both LORD and Christ (Son of David)."
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
I explained this the other day, Judy; in fact you may return to my post on Acts 3.36 if you like. This is a statement -- and strong affirmation on the part of David -- in regards to Jesus' divine nature. We have been discussing his human nature. Where you confuse the two, I do not. Hence it is not a problem for me to believe that the deity of Jesus predated David, just like it predated Abraham, while later his humanity received their Seed. The one needs not cancel out the other, unless one confuses the two -- but then, of course, one is no longer speaking of Christ.
Work on the following passage, Judy; it should help you with your unbelief:
"For David says concerning him: 'I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of
God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.'" Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both LORD and Christ."
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Jesus Himself and I agree with Him rather than with "orthodoxy"... ie:
"While the Pharisees were gathered together Jesus asked them, saying "What think ye of Christ?
Whose son is he?" They say unto him. The son of David. He saith unto them.
"How then doth David in spirit call him Lord saying The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right
hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool?" If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Looks like you are stuck in the same rut as the Pharisees of that day were Bill .... (Matt 22:42-46)
What person among us indwelt with the Holy Spirit could deny that Jesus Christ was born with David's blood
running through his veins?
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David,
the Bright and Morning Star." -- Rev 22.16
"Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne," (Acts 2.29-30).
Although it was by way of his adoption by Joseph that he was qualified to sit on the thrown, it was not by way of adoption that Jesus became the Seed of David: that came to him "according to the flesh":
"Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the seed (sperma) of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was?" (Joh 7.42).
"... concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed (sperma) of David according to the flesh," (Rom 1.3).
"Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed (sperma) of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel," (2Tim 2.8).
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Are you saying, Judy, that Mary is not of David's lineage? You had better think this through, as Jesus absolutely must be of the Seed of Abraham, which passes through David on its way to the fulfillment of the promise in Christ. "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who is Christ" (Gal 2.16). And it is not by way of adoption that Abraham's Seed finds fulfillment in Christ. That would be a blasphemous thought: "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made" (Gal 2.19).
You know, Judy, you always say "Show me in Scripture." Well, you have been shown. Now, is that all smoke, or are you going to live by your words?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Luke writes that Jesus was born of the fruit of David's genitals (Act 2.30):
Not exactly Bill "David being a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne."
Right, so in Matt we have a genealogy that shows Joseph is in David's lineage but he is
hardly the biological father of Jesus is he? Even though Jesus is born in his lineage.
hence he was not some kind of new humanity, freshly brewed with new material, unrelated to fallen humankind;
No, he is human like David was human, born on our side of the fall.
He did not come to this earth through procreation Bill. He did not have a human father - He may have been
born on this side of the fall but he was most definitely not born fallen. One can not be fallen and holy ATST
And to the naysayers Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM"; hence Jesus pre-dated even Abraham, David' predecessor. But it was not his humanity which pre-dated David; it was his divinity. And notice: he did not say that his Father was the I AM, and that he was copying him. No, Jesus said that he (and this before his glorification) is I AM; that is, Yahweh, the LORD who covenants with Abraham.
So?? Noone here disputes his heritage.
Jesus is FULLY GOD and fully man, two realities in one person, united -- but make him anything less than God or anything more than man and you are courting a demon, who is powerless to save you.
Either that or you are courting religious spirits who are filling your head with the doctrines they have been promoting for thousands of years. He doesn't have to be fully anything. He is who the Word of God
says He is - which is the Word made flesh.
Bill
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is
believed to be clean.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is
believed to be clean.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is
believed to be clean.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is
believed to be clean.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is
believed to be clean.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is
believed to be clean.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is
believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is
believed to be clean. |
