Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?

Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:27:56 -0800

 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: [email protected];[email protected]
Sent: 1/24/2006 10:22:25 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?

 

Lets get away from “fallen nature.”  That suggests a sinful occurrence

and you guys are getting hung up on that .  No one in this discussion

believes that Christ sinned, Dean. 

 

cd:Respectfully- If one states that Christ had a fallen nature sinful nature that is what one is saying John.

 

I do not like using the James passage as a proof-text for the function

Temptation, but it is the only passage I know that goes into  detail,

such as it is.   And I do not accept personal logic when I have a clear

statement that really needs no addendum.   And James 1;13-15 is such

a passage.   And so I say “exactly” because I have no other defining than

that which appears in James.   

 

From now on,  I am going to use the wording “human nature.”  Maybe

That will help a little.  And I am saying that Adam and Eve were created

wth the same human nature as you and I.  Ditto for Jesus.   If He doesn’t have the same nature, He is not like us. 

 

cd: Do you mean the pre-salvation human nature that the world has or do you mean the new nature"you and I" now hold that was giving by Christ-John? Changing terms without changing meanings will only add confusion to a complex issue-complex in the we have made it such.He is like man in every way except a sinful way.That puts us born again believers in His nature now.What if we used the term "spiritual nature" to mean Christ-like ( born again) and the term "lost nature" to mean worldly nature?In this example which would Christ have been sent in? 

 

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Knowing how sin works is not a deterrent to sinning.  Sin and sinning is anti-logical in my opinion.   I cannot imagine a time when I have committed a sin  and knot known , at that moment,  thatI would regret it or that it was just plain wrong. 

 

cd: As the commandments are now written in our hearts and the hearts of all men I can agree with you-we knew it was wrong. The difference now is that one does not get the excitement from sin as one did prior to salvation. Rather one will detest the same sin that they at one time found pleasure in. If we did not find pleasure from it we would not have continued to sin. Thank God we now have a new spirit/nature that does not take pleasure from sinning.

 

 

 

jd

.

 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 1/23/2006 10:39:34 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?

No.  I am simply speaking of the human nature versus the fallen nature. 
 
James tells us how temptation works.  Well, it works on us EXACTLY like it worked on Adam and Eve.  If not , why not?
cd: Yes you are correct John but I hesitate to use the word "EXACTLY".Temptation does works on us like it worked on Adam and Eve to an extent. The differences being we know more about the results of sin -due to the light Christ gave us to see sin by. All we have to do is look around though out our daily lives -A&E did not have this insight- they were only told what would happen. Therefore we have even less of a reason to sin then they had-and thus a lesser excuse than A&E had for their sins. But we are taken back to the spiritual place that A&E fell from -not fell too-as you are correctly stating-But know that this spiritual place is where Christ is. He was never at that fallen state prior to the cross if so that is where we would have found him and we would still be in our sins. He never had a fallen nature prior to the cross-and there our sins came upon Him through no fault of His own. There at the cross He did a good act not a faulty act. 
 
That being true,  the fruit appealed to his "lust," and he decided to entertain this temptation until it became irresistable.   So what changed?  The way sin works in tempatation?  Nope.   I do beleive in the effect of the "fall."  
cd: I agree with this John.Good material and good thinking.
 
And that "effect" is all that transpire as a result of the fall .   Man's separation from God.   The ending of a "perfected" world.  The introduction of sin as a violation of the will of God.   The end of the age of innocense and the beginning of Shame as a driving force with man[kind.] 
cd: Amen and that perfect world is coming back because of Jesus Christ.
 
jd
 
 
 
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 1/22/2006 9:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?

 
If Christ came in the fallen state He would have been a sinner-
 
First of all, Dean,  Christ is God and Man.  
Secondly, don't think in terms of "fallen nature" but in terms of sin nature. 
 
Now, you may laugh thinking one is no better than the other  -  but I believe there is a difference.   The first has sinned -  the second only has potential for sin......  it is temptable.  
cd: Then is this the same as comparing the lost man to the Christ-like man-The fallen man is in sin-the Christ-life man is temptable but not in sin?
 
Adam and Eve were created with a temptable nature  (a sin nature) or they would have never been given the charge to "not eat" nor would they have violated that command. 
 
jd
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
To: [email protected]
Sent: 1/21/2006 2:30:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?

 
 
 
cd: To me this fits the state of Christianity (our new state, a Christ-like state)not the lost man following Satan state that the world lies in .
 
Yes, a good analogy but we as Christians are given a measure of the Holy Spirit; how
crazy does it sound to say Jesus came into the world with a nature that follows Satan
which is the natural mind and the same state that the world lies in... Oh but ATST he
walks in the fullness of the Holy Spirit?
 
cd: If Christ came in the fallen state He would have been a sinner-Yet God himself said He was well pleased with Christ-What sinner is God well pleased wit? Christ was of a righteous nature-not a fallen nature.In the below we see Christ saying "Yes, You are of Abraham's seed but not Abraham's Children-instead you are Satan's Children. This shows there is a clear distinction between the two. One can be of Abraham's seed and still belong to Satan-and One can be of Abraham seed and belong to God.Christ was of this nature- Hence He was with this nature in the flesh of Abraham's seed.When God prevented Abraham from killing Isaac He told Abraham that because you have not withheld your son from me I will not withhold my one son from you-meaning he would send Christ to Abraham's decedents.

Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place & amp; amp; amp; amp; amp; lt; FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

 
cd: Hebrews 2:18: For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.
 
We have on record that he was tempted in the wilderness in the same three areas A&E
were in the garden; where they flunked, he passed that test.  Then he was tempted in the
garden of Gethsemane not to obey the Father and he overcame there.  All the rest is pure
speculation.
 
cd: To be Holy (including tender hearted) and see sin -in the temple-in the hypocrisy of the Pharacees-In the rejection from His own people because they liked sin more Judy is to suffer-I do the same thing while out on the streets with unbelief and sin.
 
Clark wrote:

Heb 2:18 - For in that he himself hath suffered - The maxim on which this verse is founded is the following: A state of suffering disposes persons to be compassionate, and those who endure most afflictions are they who feel most for others. The apostle argues that, among other causes, it was necessary that Jesus Christ should partake of human nature, exposed to trials, persecutions, and various sufferings, that he might the better feel for and be led to succor those who are afflicted and sorely tried. This sentiment is well expressed by a Roman poet: -

Me quoque per multas similis fortuna labores

Jactatam hac demum voluit consistere terra:

Non ignara mali, miseris succurere disco.

Virg. Aen. i., v. 632.

"For I myself like you, have been distress’d,

Till heaven afforded me this place of rest;

Like you, an alien in a land unknown,

I learn to pity woes so like my own."

Dryden.

"There are three things," says Dr. Owen, "of which tempted believers do stand in need:

1. Strength to withstand their temptations;

2. Consolations to support their spirits under them;

3. Seasonable deliverance from them.

Unto these is the succor afforded by our High Priest suited; and it is variously administered to them:

1. By his word or promises;

2. By his Spirit; (and, that

1. By communicating to them supplies of grace or spiritual strength;

2. Strong consolation;

3. By rebuking their tempters and temptations); and

3. By his providence disposing of all things to their good and advantage in the issue." Those who are peculiarly tempted and severely tried, have an especial interest in, and claim upon Christ. They, particularly, may go with boldness to the throne of grace, where they shall assuredly obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Were the rest of the Scripture silent on this subject, this verse might be an ample support for every tempted soul.

 

I am also allowing Christ,s divinity for the entire time he walked the earth- but I do not allow for Him to not be wholly God and to not be wholly Human .
 
Again I ask you Dean - what is wholly God and wholly human?  Explain it to me. What does it
look like?  People just parrot it all over the place because it is supposed to be "orthodox"  Who
cares if it makes sense or not.
 
cd:He- not "it". He Look just like a beautiful man completely filled with the Holy Spirit Judy- beyond measure.
 
When I say "it" I mean Wholly God and Wholly human.  Like - what does love look like, what does justice look like?
 
cd: He looks like God in the inner parts-with a glow of purity about Him from righteousness,truth and Justice-and a man on the outer parts.
 
 
cd: I accept it in love Judy,thank you-nor do I want to be opposed to you-I just want to express the truth that I know. The only liars would be those opposed to truth-I see non here doing that-they are only a stubborn lot-excluding the Mormons.
 
Thanks Dean; I hope we are communicating
 
Grace and Peace to you..... judyt
cd: I think were are sister-family can discuss truth and still be family.May God bless you Judy:-)
 
 
 
 

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