Suggestion: expand this post for easy reading
So many things wrong (IMO) with this essay.
1. Re: Isa 64:6 states a circumstance I believe we all share. But I believe this because of other considerations.
2. The Abrahamic promise applies to all who believe -- Romans 4:11 "...that he might be the father of all who believe ..."
Your thinking that that the promise was only given to Abraham is very much off the mark. also read Romans 3:28
and tell me, once again, that the Abrahamic promise does not apply to all of mankind. all of mankind, Dean --
including those "who have gone on before." Jesus sacrifice is once FOR ALL TIME. Adam, Seth, Isaac are
saved because of Jesus Christ. That is why "faith" in such passages as Romans 3:28 is not just talking about
my faith but , also, the faith of Jesus Christ. My faith is without value if I am not INTO (eis) Christ. And if I
within Jesus, I share in His faith just as surely as I share in His rightousness. Only His faith can be considered
timeless.
3. The parents of John the B - I can't show you their specific sins. But I am confident that they attended sin offerings
as prescribed under the law (not proof, I know, but I do have this conviction.) In Phil 3:9, Paul contrasts the
righteousness under the law and that which is of the Spirit. Righteousness that is of the law fails!! That salvation
is by faith APART from the Law, that faith is in exchange for personal [and, by implication failed}rightousness
is a clear indictment of the righteousness of us all and presents us as complicite in the failings mentioned in Isa 64: 6.
Also, let's not forget that "all have sinned" (Romans 5:12) And so I speak of comparative righteousness when it
comes to the parents of J the B. If they, indeed, where sinless - then there was no need , for them, of the death of
Christ !! Go refigure !!
4. Re: Matt 12:34 Jesus can speak in general tones "you being evil" because "none is righteous, no not one."
5. Re: "why substitute faith for personal righteousness - because He has to." You miss the point, choosing rather to
discuss whether God has to do anything !! Given the situation of man as revealed in scripture, given the fact that
man will never be righteous enough to effect personal and eternal salvation -- God HAS to substitute faith for
that failing rightousness. There is no other way of saving man given the revealed parameters.
----- Original Message -----Sent: 2/2/2006 2:53:08 AMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?cd:There is not doubt that the Law failed and we needed the help of the Holy Spirit to keep the Law- But you keep saying that God wouldn't ask us to do something we cannot do!!! Care to change your mind on that one. :Looks like you already have.---------------------------cd: You are looking at it wrong John. I am stating in what sense the law failed and what sense it didn't fail. It failed because the people dropped the ball due to their flesh being weak and their choice to live by the flesh. It didn't fail as some people sought the way of Godliness and by doing so were able to keep the law.------------------------but it fail as a whole for many lived under that law and went to heaven. How about Elijah ,Isaiah, and Daniel-did they fail with the law? Of course.----------------------------cd: The show me where they fell into sin John? You will not find it and they didn't do so.---------------------------------------How about Zacharias and Elizabeth were they not righteous compare to others - they were righteous--------------------------------------cd: John,the Bible didn't say they were righteous when compared to others it states that they were righteous before God-keeping all the Commandments and ordinances-They were able to keep the law John prior to the indwelling-so can we after the indwelling.Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.cd: John Wesley wrote:Luk 1:6 - Walking in all the moral commandments, and ceremonial ordinances, blameless - How admirable a character! May our behaviour be thus unblamable, and our obedience thus sincere and universal!-------------------------------but the fact remains that our righeousness is a filthy rags before the Lord and Jesus, Himself, perhaps thinking of relatives says" and if you [all] being evil know how to give give good gits, how much more ....._--------------------------------------------------------cd: John can you show me the verse that says our righteousness is as filthy rags-The only place I can find it is in Isa 64:6 and it was speaking to those whom were carried away to Babylonian captivity?? Next point how can a Christian be evil John-this is speaking to the lost that do evil worksMat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh
cd: Can't I speak good things John-even Jesus saves from hell-I was given a new kinder heart?
2Ti 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.cd: Do Christians wax worse and worse John or have they become better because Jesus is at the Father's right hand?
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& nbsp; before Christ came-if they could be righteous before the giving of grace why not us with grace and the Holy Ghost indwelling: And why this point. What does this have to do with anything? I believe that "righteousness" is a gifted consideration in the mind of God (Ro 4:4) He sees faith and uses it as a substitute for [our] personal righteousness. Why? BECAUSE HE HAS TO !! Those you mentioned, above, are not exception to the rule of Romans 4:4. Agreed?!cd:" He has to"?? My God doesn't have to do nothing John-He chooses to do for us in His goodness.John our sin put us at odds with God-He had a quarrel with us and after we received Christ and confessed those sins we got grace given to us and those sin removed-that is what made unrighteous-It is then our task to keep from sinning and returning to that state again-and God shows us how-by walking in holiness. There is a big difference between works prior to salvation and works after salvation. Rom.4:4 is speaking to Abraham not us. Read what Wesley wrote on the matter.Rom 4:5
- But to him that worketh not - It being impossible he should without faith. But believeth, his faith is imputed to him for righteousness - Therefore God's affirming of Abraham, that faith was imputed to him for righteousness, plainly shows that he worked not; or, in other words, that he was not justified by works, but by faith only. Hence we see plainly how groundless that opinion is, that holiness or sanctification is previous to our justification. For the sinner, being first convinced of his sin and danger by the Spirit of God, stands trembling before the awful tribunal of divine justice ; and has nothing to plead, but his own guilt, and the merits of a Mediator. Christ here interposes; justice is satisfied; the sin is remitted, and pardon is applied to the soul, by a divine faith wrought by the Holy Ghost, who then begins the great work of inward sanctification. Thus God justifies the ungodly, and yet remains just, and true to all his attributes! But let none hence presume to "continue in sin;" for to the impenit ent, God "is a consuming fire." On him that justifieth the ungodly - If a man could possibly be made holy before he was justified, it would entirely set his justification aside; seeing he could not, in the very nature of the thing, be justified if he were not, at that very time, ungodly.cd:The Below is also about works John.
9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Tit 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
