Suggestion: expand this post for easy reading
So many things wrong (IMO) with this essay.
1. Re: Isa 64:6 states a circumstance I believe we all
share. But I believe this because of other
considerations.
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cd: That would mean Christ died in vain and we are not forgiven and His
grace did not make us righteous by the moral law.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made
sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
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2. The Abrahamic promise applies to all who believe
-- Romans 4:11 "...that he might be the father of all who
believe ..."
Your thinking
that that the promise was only given to Abraham is very much off the
mark. also read Romans 3:28
and tell
me, once again, that the Abrahamic promise does not apply to all of
mankind. all of mankind, Dean --
including
those "who have gone on before." Jesus sacrifice is once FOR ALL
TIME. Adam, Seth, Isaac are
saved
because of Jesus Christ. That is why "faith" in such passages as
Romans 3:28 is not just talking about
my faith
but , also, the faith of Jesus Christ. My faith is without value
if I am not INTO (eis) Christ. And if I
within
Jesus, I share in His faith just
as surely as I share in His rightousness. Only His faith can
be considered
timeless.
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cd: John you are still speaking of initial salvation and I am speaking
of our walk post salvation-Yes of course we come by faith but that
doesn't remove us from keeping God s commandments and our duty to do
his work-read on down to verse 31 of Romans 3-The moral law is still with
us: We do not make it void but we do establish it by the keeping of that law
as we are able to do in Christ. To be righteous means to be right by the
law. The unrighteous are law breakers.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make
void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Webster Dictionary
usRIGHTEOUS
, a.
ri'chus.
1. Just; accordant to the divine law. Applied to persons, it denotes one
who is holy in heart, and observant of the divine commands in practice; as a
righteous man. Applied to things, it
denotes consonant to the divine will or to justice; as a righteous act. It is used chiefly in theology,
and applied to God, to his testimonies and to his saints. The righteous, in Scripture, denote the servants of
God, the saints.
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3. The parents of John the B - I can't
show you their specific sins. But I am confident that they
attended sin offerings
as
prescribed under the law (not proof, I know, but I do have this
conviction.) In Phil 3:9, Paul contrasts the
righteousness under the law and that which is of the Spirit.
Righteousness that is of the law fails!! That salvation
is by
faith APART from the Law, that faith is in exchange
for personal [and, by implication failed}rightousness
is a clear
indictment of the righteousness of us all and presents us as complicite in
the failings mentioned in Isa 64: 6.
Also,
let's not forget that "all have sinned" (Romans 5:12) And so I
speak of comparative righteousness when it
comes to the
parents of J the B. If they, indeed, where sinless - then there
was no need , for them, of the death of
Christ
!! Go refigure !!
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cd: Remember that man was conceived in sin.Hence the
need of a savior. I am not so sure that this is true after the ascension by
J. the B. parents were post ascension. That is another debate with would
best wait till these are concluded.
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4. Re: Matt 12:34 Jesus can speak in general
tones "you being evil" because "none is righteous, no not one."
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cd: When a person receives Christ confesses his sin and asks
forgiveness-He is righteous John-and not evil-this is speaking of
pre-salvation.
Rom 5:19
For as by one
man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall
many be made righteous.
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5. Re: "why substitute faith for personal
righteousness - because He has to." You miss the
point, choosing rather to
discuss whether
God has to do anything !! Given the situation of man as revealed
in scripture, given the fact that
man will never
be righteous enough to effect personal and eternal salvation --
God HAS to substitute faith for
that failing
rightousness. There is no other way of saving man given
the revealed parameters.
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cd: John God isn't going to do it all for us-aren't we tested
and tried as Christians.If He already did it all why even brother? This
isn't Christian teaching John-it is however Calvinism. Read the message to
the church of Sardis for yourself and note how Christ is instruction the
Church to acts of works-after salvation-and the warning for not doing
so.
Rev
3:1 And unto
the angel of the church in Sardis write; These
things saith he that
hath the seven <
/FONT>Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast,
and
repent. If therefore thou s halt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with
me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot
out his name
out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:6
He that
hath an ear,
let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/2/2006 2:53:08 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of
God's Nature?
cd:There is not doubt that the Law failed and we needed the
help of the Holy Spirit to keep the Law- But you keep saying that God wouldn't ask us to do something
we cannot do!!! Care to change your mind on that
one. :Looks like you already have.
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cd: You are looking at it wrong
John. I am stating in what sense the law failed and what sense
it didn't fail. It failed because the people dropped the ball due to their
flesh being weak and their choice to live by the flesh. It didn't fail as
some people sought the way of Godliness and by doing so were able to keep
the law.
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but it fail as a whole for many lived under that law
and went to heaven. How about Elijah ,Isaiah, and Daniel-did
they fail with the law? Of
course.
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cd: The show me where they fell into sin
John? You will not find it and they didn't do
so.
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How about Zacharias
and Elizabeth were they not righteous compare to others - they were righteous
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cd: John,the Bible didn't say they were righteous
when compared to others it states that they were righteous before
God-keeping all the Commandments and ordinances-They were able to keep the
law John prior to the indwelling-so can we after the
indwelling.
Luk
1:6 And they were both righteous before God,
walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
cd: John Wesley wrote:
Luk 1:6 - Walking in all the
moral commandments, and ceremonial ordinances, blameless - How admirable a
character! May our behaviour be thus unblamable, and our obedience thus
sincere and universal!
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but the fact remains that our righeousness
is a filthy rags before the Lord and Jesus, Himself, perhaps thinking of
relatives says" and if you [all] being evil know how to give give
good gits, how much more .....
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cd: John can you show me the verse that says our
righteousness is as filthy rags-The only place I can find it is in
Isa 64:6 and it was speaking to those whom were carried away to Babylonian
captivity?? Next point how can a Christian be evil John-this is speaking
to the lost that do evil works
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil,
speak good
things? for
out of the
abundance of the
heart the mouth speaketh
cd: Can't I speak good things John-even
Jesus saves from hell-I was given a new kinder heart?
2Ti 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and
worse, deceiving, and being
deceived.
cd: Do Christians wax worse and worse
John or have they become better because Jesus is at the Father's right
hand?
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&
nbsp; before
Christ came-if they could be righteous before the giving of grace why not
us with grace and the Holy Ghost indwelling: And why this point. What does this have to do with
anything? I believe that "righteousness" is a gifted
consideration in the mind of God (Ro 4:4) He sees faith and uses it as a
substitute for [our] personal righteousness. Why?
BECAUSE HE HAS TO !! Those you mentioned, above, are not
exception to the rule of Romans 4:4.
Agreed?!
cd:" He has to"?? My God doesn't have to do
nothing John-He chooses to do for us in His goodness.John our sin put us
at odds with God-He had a quarrel with us and after we received
Christ and confessed those sins we got grace given to us and those sin
removed-that is what made unrighteous-It is then our task to keep from
sinning and returning to that state again-and God shows us how-by walking
in holiness. There is a big difference between works prior to salvation
and works after salvation. Rom.4:4 is speaking to Abraham not us. Read
what Wesley wrote on the matter.
Rom 4:5
- But to him that worketh not - It being impossible he
should without faith. But believeth, his faith is imputed to him for
righteousness - Therefore God's affirming of Abraham, that faith was
imputed to him for righteousness, plainly shows that he worked not; or, in
other words, that he was not justified by works, but by faith only. Hence
we see plainly how groundless that opinion is, that holiness or
sanctification is previous to our justification. For the sinner, being
first convinced of his sin and danger by the Spirit of God, stands
trembling before the awful tribunal of divine justice ; and has nothing to
plead, but his own guilt, and the merits of a Mediator. Christ here
interposes; justice is satisfied; the sin is remitted, and pardon is
applied to the soul, by a divine faith wrought by the Holy Ghost, who then
begins the great work of inward sanctification. Thus God justifies the
ungodly, and yet remains just, and true to all his attributes! But let
none hence presume to "continue in sin;" for to the impenit ent, God "is a
consuming fire." On him that justifieth the ungodly - If a man could
possibly be made holy before he was justified, it would entirely set his
justification aside; seeing he could not, in the very nature of the thing,
be justified if he were not, at that very time, ungodly.
cd:The Below is also about works
John.
9:62 And Jesus said unto
him, No man,
having put his
hand to the
plow, and looking back,
is fit for
the kingdom of God.
Tit 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in
works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and
unto every good work reprobate.
