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----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/10/2006 2:48:48 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God female?
DavH, pardon my interruption
DAVEH: Welcome to the discussion, Dean.
all the above questions as one and the same question DavH.
DAVEH: Correct. I tried to give a variety of hypothetical cases so that depending on the answer, I wouldn't have to repeat the question later with minor modification.
even if they have never been taught of Jesus Christ-as those who have been exposed to God's word? I hope this is a fair assessment?
DAVEH: Yes...that is pretty much what I am asking. To expand on that, some folks (like the Chinese) are born into cultures that either ignore Christianity, or even condition their people to eschew Christianity. And even more prevalent are the cultures that have substituted their own religious notions that can be contrary to Christia
n principles.....witness Muslimism. Then there are the Buddhists, Shinto....I think you get the point. Can a kid growing up in an anti-Christian environment a thousand years ago or so, have an equal opportunity to choose who they will serve??? Or can they be too brainwashed by their culture/religion to recognize right from wrong?
God gives all men the equal chance at obtaining salvation by writing His laws into the hearts of all men.
DAVEH: Does not salvation by your standards require faith in Jesus, and repentance? Can His laws be the motivating factor for one gaining salvation without even knowing the name of Jesus? What passages do you believe is evidence of such?
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cd: Gosh DavH, you sure make these tough for an old mountain boy. There is no salvation without knowing Christ. The fear of hell that is a result of breaking the moral law is the motivation factor, also the love of Christ that speaks of faith in appreciation for His act that allows for our salvation is our strength to walk on in Jesus despite persecution. To be saved one must believe they were damned at one time and without knowledge of the law one cannot know this -so God wrote it in the heart of man. The problem with modern man is that fear is being removed because it is being taught we now have nothing to fear upon salvation and the law doesn't exist for us. This is great error.
All know good and evil-right or wrong.
DAVEH: Do you believe knowing right or wrong is required for salvation?
cd: Yes-one must admit to the wrong (confess sin) and believe in the right way of Jesus Christ. One can do this at home alone or in public.But the wrong must be stopped. We call that repenting. Modern beliefs would tell us that one needs not repent after salvation.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his
place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
It is not the knowing of Christ that condemns one.
DAVEH: I'm not speaking of what condemns one, but rather what saves one. If one does not know Christ, can one be saved? From my time on TT, I thought you folks (darest I say, Protestants) believe that only those who know Christ can be saved. Is that incorrect, Dean?
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cd: No you are correct DavH.But that is God's choice of whom to save and he will get his complete number. The below is of course speaking of the church as a whole which is made up of parts.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
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All man are not equal in that God decides whom to call (invite)to salvation.
DAVEH: That sounds confusing to me. I thought you were previously telling me God gives all men the equal chance at obtaining salvation.......what am I missing here, Dean?
cd: I am beginning to wonder myself:-) All men have an equal chance to stand of fall by how one keeps God's moral law-But God chooses whom he want for salvation-totally His choice.You seemed to have missed this verse the first time out so I added to it-hopes this helps.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Is this fair of God to call some and allow others to go onward into hell? Yes as God will give mercy to whom He will.
DAVEH: Hmmmmmm.........doesn't sound quite so fair to me. You are making it sound like God is a respecter of some persons, and not others.
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cd: No, not really. I just lack the ability to make myself clear at times. God wants all men everywhere to repent- some do- others have gone so far into sin God has left them there. Others he calls but they will not come-yet he know who will come but still gives those rejecters the chance sometimes for the reason that they will not have an excuse on judgement day for the harsh punishment. There are seven things God hates-perhaps some have done those sins to often and he doesn't call them for salvation-But all men have the equal chance to do good or evil.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Dean Moore wrote:
Everyone is born into this world with an equal opportunity to choose who they will serve
DAVEH: I hope you don't mind me jumping into your exchange with JD, Judy. Do you have any Biblical evidence to support your above theory? If not, then can you explain how.....
cd: DavH, pardon my interruption,but I have asked Judy if I could answer these questions-and Judy, being the kind hearted saint that she is, has graciously allowed me to do so:-) If my answers are unsatisfactory,or anyone feels something should be added- then you are at liberty to discuss the issue further.See answer below.
1) A Chinese person born 2,000 years ago would have had the same equal opportunity to choose as did somebody born in Jerusalem at the same time?
2) Or, a Chinese person born 100 years ago would have had the same equal opportunity to choose as somebody born in the Bible Belt?
3) Or a person born in China who was born 100 years before Jesus had the same equal opportunity to choose as one who lived in Jerusalem at the time of Christ?
IOW.....How as a Christian well rooted and having the knowledge of Chri st readily available from the time you were born,
and per haps relatives to guide your in your walk in his footsteps, do you think the above mentioned examples of the Chinese guy born in a non-Christian society really do have equal opportunity to choose who they will serve? To me it seems there is a definite inequality in the circumstances in which people are born, and in having an equal opportunity to choose who they will serve to even hear Jesus' name, let alone accept him as their Savior, or choose to follow and serve him when they do not have the opportunity to hear the gospel.
I can see where you might think Jesus would accept all men equally, but to say that all men are born into the world with equal opportunity seems a bit of a stretch. Is it theory, or is it Biblical doctrine?
cd: I see all the above questions as one and the same question DavH. Do people from different times, places ,and cultures have the same equal opportunity with God and salvation,-even if they have never been taught of Jesus Christ-as those who have been exposed to God's word? I hope this is a fair assessment?
The only way I know to answer this question is to: (1) Show how God gives all men an equal chance at obtaining heaven,and (2) Show how God and Him alone decides whom to to invite to heaven.
(1) God gives all men the equal chance at obtaining salvation by writing His laws into the hearts of all men. All know good and evil-right or wrong. It is not the knowing of Christ that condemns one. It is sin that brought corruption and condemned us already John 3:18. Receiving Christ removed the condemnation that sin placed there. All men have the equal opportunity to not sin.or to sin. Hence all men are equal. The passage of" choose you this say whom you will serve" is saying: Will you be good this day and serve God or will you do evil (sin) this day and serve Satan. Regardless what the dancing Calvinist say one cannot do both and live.
(2) All man are not equal in that God decides whom to call (invite)to salvation. Men have removed themselves so far from God as they can not find their way back to Him on their own .This is called total depravity. The wall of sin is too great for us to breach alone. Is this fair of God to call some and allow others to go onward into hell? Yes as God will give mercy to whom He will.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
May advice is not to boast by saying I already have a paid ticket to heaven-so if I sin I have nothing to fear- because God had mercy on our poor ,miserable souls and He could leave us as He did the other children whom thought they also had it made because they were son's of Abraham and believed that God owed then something too.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Hope this answer you question DavH. As this is my belief.
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Judith H Taylor wrote:
Everyone is born into this world with an equal opportunity to choose who they will serve.
along with the opportunity to grow in wisdom and grace - or in deceit and darkness... judyt
What do you believe separates ppl at birth JD? judyt
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Dave Hansen
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http://www.langlitz.com
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